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Old 18th March 2014, 06:53 PM   #11
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Bob - if I'm not mistaken, Ryan has no particular axe to grind with the sonics of any of the MA drivers he's heard (I'd be happy to corrected on that) - but has certainly spent some time honing his measurement skills.

Whatever the reasons that folks are finding and getting torqued up about differences in manufacturer's published measurements and their own field tests - a phenomenon perhaps never to be explained, I believe and not restricted to Mark's products - I wonder how much irritation arises due to the cognitive dissonance of a product that "measures so badly for me, and doesn't agree with the maker's tests, yet I think I still like them"?

I've not found Mark averse to debating technical issues, and as tolerant as he may be, manufacturer's forums here do have their own set of rules, and are not the place to vent dyspepsic animus, which certainly stuck me as how the particular Markus thread devolved.
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Old 18th March 2014, 07:05 PM   #12
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Bob - if I'm not mistaken, Ryan has no particular axe to grind with the sonics of any of the MA drivers he's heard (I'd be happy to corrected on that)

You're right Chris. I liked the sound of the A6 and 7. The recent A10 I heard at last summers DIY event I liked, but the previous A10 I did not like. I'm not a fan of the CHR70s I've heard either, but for the price they're ok. Etc. etc. etc.

I do think measurements tell us partly how they'll sound, which is why I am concerned with this topic. Others may not care about squiggly lines, and that's ok.
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Old 18th March 2014, 10:13 PM   #13
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I get the feeling that the disparity of opinion re what manufacturers & DIYers regard as an acceptable baseline for detailed driver measurements is going to become (speaking in general) akin to valves vs SS, wire audibility or lack thereof, or one of the other areas where armed camps emerge & never the twain shall meet. The thread also appears to be approaching personal remarks.

For the sake of reference, this is the MA thread setting out their views on measurement equipment: Future testing, data analysis and presentation
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Old 18th March 2014, 11:01 PM   #14
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For the sake of reference, this is the MA thread setting out their views on measurement equipment: Future testing, data analysis and presentation
That thread is a farce. Not just because Mark deleted my contributions in that thread.

People like Vance Dickason, Joseph D'Appolito or Don Keele have written papers and books on how to measure drivers and loudspeakers. Nearfield measurements, ground plane measurements or windowed measurements have been used professionally for decades. What once required large investments has become available for little (calibrated microphones) or no money (REW, HOLMimpulse) to the enthusiast. It's impossible to put this genie back in the bottle.
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Old 18th March 2014, 11:10 PM   #15
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I don't think it's good practice for Mark to ask for input, and then reject input that he doesn't agree with, which I've experienced first hand. But I can easily brush that off. What I don't appreciate is his condescention of DIY measurements. Based off the responses I've gotten so far from this thread, seems to me Mark's very own handy work is not up to DIY standards If Mark would like, I'd be happy to give him some pointers
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Old 18th March 2014, 11:12 PM   #16
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People like Vance Dickason, Joseph D'Appolito or Don Keele have written papers and books on how to measure drivers and loudspeakers. Nearfield measurements, ground plane measurements or windowed measurements have been used professionally for decades.
This was essentially the point of my post that was deleted. I said hey, what's the big deal. If the reflections in your room are really that bad, go outside. Use a ladder and a GP measurement and you've got an anechoic result. DIY'er already have this figured out, everyone can go home now.
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Old 19th March 2014, 12:00 AM   #17
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My experience with the alpair A12p correlate what you guys seems to say.

The measurments Ive taken didnt match, not even close actually, the manufacturer measurments.
Ive spoken to another person about this subject. The most huge difference is the response from 6khz to 12 khz. My measurments and the other user I talked to showed a clear roll off from 6khz to around 11 khz then flat again.

I'm talking about a 5-8 db roll off too, not a minor thing.
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Old 19th March 2014, 01:13 AM   #18
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My experience with the alpair A12p correlate what you guys seems to say.

The measurments Ive taken didnt match, not even close actually, the manufacturer measurments.
Ive spoken to another person about this subject. The most huge difference is the response from 6khz to 12 khz. My measurments and the other user I talked to showed a clear roll off from 6khz to around 11 khz then flat again.

I'm talking about a 5-8 db roll off too, not a minor thing.
Ok, let's see your measurements then. Mark's raw data plot shows a pretty significant trough (~8 db) right in the frequency area you mention.

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Old 19th March 2014, 04:23 AM   #19
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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With how many other manufacturers do DIYers of any skill level / expertise have the opportunity to publicly discuss any aspect of their products, particularly with such repeated highly negative criticism of both technical / measured performance, as well as pronouncements as to moral / ethical subterfuge

I volunteer 2 names for consideration ; Ed Schilling and David Dicks
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Old 19th March 2014, 04:34 AM   #20
_henry_ is offline _henry_  Australia
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its the same old story.

i never bought any MA drivers anymore because of these reasons.

sure they sounded good, but not for the price, and there's always a group of people that heavily defending his products for economic reasons.
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