Well, this project has come to a halt.
I have come to realise that my drivers are... well... not so good. They look much better on paper than in real life.
I've been running them for a while now, trying to break them in, but the sound remains tiny, high pitched and ... trying to put this into words... scratchy. Very "Radio Shack". Very disappointing considering they were 20$ each.
I found a recording of the VIFA TD9 on Youtube, and even the recording done from a small camera on Youtube sounds better than my drivers.
So, they will stay in small towers of 9 drivers each, and be used for... oh, I don't know yet.
I need to have access to better drivers. For that, I will need a distributor for VIFA or other respectable brand that will not charge double just for shipping. Time will tell.
The place I live is very nice, but there are some drawbacks.
For now, I have a bit of a broken heart because I really wanted to build those.... Instead, I will focus on smaller projects until something comes up.
Thanks for all the help so far. I might be calling upon you again... soon if possible!
I have come to realise that my drivers are... well... not so good. They look much better on paper than in real life.
I've been running them for a while now, trying to break them in, but the sound remains tiny, high pitched and ... trying to put this into words... scratchy. Very "Radio Shack". Very disappointing considering they were 20$ each.
I found a recording of the VIFA TD9 on Youtube, and even the recording done from a small camera on Youtube sounds better than my drivers.
So, they will stay in small towers of 9 drivers each, and be used for... oh, I don't know yet.
I need to have access to better drivers. For that, I will need a distributor for VIFA or other respectable brand that will not charge double just for shipping. Time will tell.
The place I live is very nice, but there are some drawbacks.
For now, I have a bit of a broken heart because I really wanted to build those.... Instead, I will focus on smaller projects until something comes up.
Thanks for all the help so far. I might be calling upon you again... soon if possible!
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Perceval,
Sorry to hear that you are not getting the results you were hoping for. Before totally giving up - are you using the appropriate equalization required to make these drivers generate any bass in a sealed cabinet line array? Small moderate Qts drivers have no bass to speak of in a sealed cabinet so it is not surprising that they sound high pitch and scratchy. FWIW, I think qnty 9 Vifa TC9FD's in a sealed cabinet without any EQ'ing will sound bad too - there is no bottom end below 150 Hz. You will need significant bass boost (like circa +20 dB at 40 to 50 Hz) and -6dB BSC shelf above 1 kHz to tame the shout that comes from all that baffle step loss with narrow cabinets in order to extract a balanced sound from them. With 9 drivers and circa 30 cm^2 Sd each you should have about 270 cm^2 of Sd - which is similar to a large 8 in woofer - which should make appreciable bass with sufficient cone movement. To test out the theory of whether or not these drivers are truly cr@p - I suggest you build a quick and dirty cardboard or foamcore bass reflex box tuned to about 70 Hz. Put the driver in and listen. From the specs, curves, and photos - I don't believe your drivers are inherently bad. Maybe you just need more of them or more aggressive EQ. If it sounds good, you will always have these for other projects like a MLTL, a 2-way OB, a mini monitor, a DCR... Btw, I just made a DCR with a single Vifa and it makes decent sounding bass. Without the cabinet it sounds small and tinny. Here is the sound clip if you are interested in hearing what a cabinet can do for a 3.5 inch driver.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/404585d1394377264-foam-core-board-speaker-enclosures-dvr-vifa-clip-01.zip
So, I urge you to go back and try lots of bass enhancement EQ. Download Jriver and play with the EQ - add the "Superbass/WOW" enhancement and see if that helps.
Good luck and don't give up, yet...
Cheers,
X
Sorry to hear that you are not getting the results you were hoping for. Before totally giving up - are you using the appropriate equalization required to make these drivers generate any bass in a sealed cabinet line array? Small moderate Qts drivers have no bass to speak of in a sealed cabinet so it is not surprising that they sound high pitch and scratchy. FWIW, I think qnty 9 Vifa TC9FD's in a sealed cabinet without any EQ'ing will sound bad too - there is no bottom end below 150 Hz. You will need significant bass boost (like circa +20 dB at 40 to 50 Hz) and -6dB BSC shelf above 1 kHz to tame the shout that comes from all that baffle step loss with narrow cabinets in order to extract a balanced sound from them. With 9 drivers and circa 30 cm^2 Sd each you should have about 270 cm^2 of Sd - which is similar to a large 8 in woofer - which should make appreciable bass with sufficient cone movement. To test out the theory of whether or not these drivers are truly cr@p - I suggest you build a quick and dirty cardboard or foamcore bass reflex box tuned to about 70 Hz. Put the driver in and listen. From the specs, curves, and photos - I don't believe your drivers are inherently bad. Maybe you just need more of them or more aggressive EQ. If it sounds good, you will always have these for other projects like a MLTL, a 2-way OB, a mini monitor, a DCR... Btw, I just made a DCR with a single Vifa and it makes decent sounding bass. Without the cabinet it sounds small and tinny. Here is the sound clip if you are interested in hearing what a cabinet can do for a 3.5 inch driver.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/404585d1394377264-foam-core-board-speaker-enclosures-dvr-vifa-clip-01.zip
So, I urge you to go back and try lots of bass enhancement EQ. Download Jriver and play with the EQ - add the "Superbass/WOW" enhancement and see if that helps.
Good luck and don't give up, yet...
Cheers,
X
Hmm.. food for thought indeed.
I did try a bit of EQ, but I didn't try anything crazy yet... certainly not +20dB... Ok, I will try to work some more on these little guys before completely giving up. Well, that was easy wasn't it?
Funny you would reply, because I needed to take my mind off the towers (sometimes, being too close is hard to see the obvious) and try something else for fun, just to clear up my mind a bit. I built a quick and dirty Cornu. I did hear some bass coming from it, not overly obvious, but something was there. So there might be hope.
Thanks!
I did try a bit of EQ, but I didn't try anything crazy yet... certainly not +20dB... Ok, I will try to work some more on these little guys before completely giving up. Well, that was easy wasn't it?
Funny you would reply, because I needed to take my mind off the towers (sometimes, being too close is hard to see the obvious) and try something else for fun, just to clear up my mind a bit. I built a quick and dirty Cornu. I did hear some bass coming from it, not overly obvious, but something was there. So there might be hope.
Thanks!
Did you see the suggested EQ curve for the 25-driver Vifa array? It is +20dB at 30 Hz (relative to minimum boost). http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s-22.html#post3634913
So +20dB is par for the course in the world of small driver line arrays.
that eq curve seems right.
9 x 3" drivers ?
That'd be the area of an 8".
Even if you were not running them wide open, that looks like a big room.
I had luck with a 9 x 4" array, but it was focused (like a satelite dish), good for around 10' away (no more, no less) but couch or more wide. I would not recommend it to 95% of people due to the very very small listening spot and very costly. Even then, it only had the area of a 12" driver, and I needed more for more theater / bass music. Too bad because they were very "electrostatic" like in transparency.
I like arrays, but at $20 each x 9 drivers (per side), that ain't cheap.
Norman
9 x 3" drivers ?
That'd be the area of an 8".
Even if you were not running them wide open, that looks like a big room.
I had luck with a 9 x 4" array, but it was focused (like a satelite dish), good for around 10' away (no more, no less) but couch or more wide. I would not recommend it to 95% of people due to the very very small listening spot and very costly. Even then, it only had the area of a 12" driver, and I needed more for more theater / bass music. Too bad because they were very "electrostatic" like in transparency.
I like arrays, but at $20 each x 9 drivers (per side), that ain't cheap.
Norman
Well, gave another shot at EQing a bit more on the extreme side.
I tried to follow that curve and .. well...
Started with some jazz, female vocalist, and it wasn't too bad. But low key cello would rattle the driver's cone, and higher notes would ... simmer? Kinda like a cymbal swell.
Then I tried some Daft Punk, to test that extreme curve... that didn't go so well.
Those little drivers were making lots of cone noise and rattle at the lower frequencies, and the higher frequencies were drowned in distorsion. All garbled up and not something pleasant to to listen to.
Lowered everything, kept the same curve but went down instead of up, and it got a little better, but still no very enjoyable. Played around with different EQ curves, but I couldn't get both ends to get fixed and sound good.
So, for very low level listening without bass, it is ok, but as soon as I crank it up a bit, it all comes apart.
I can record the sounds it makes later. You'll hear what I mean.
I tried to follow that curve and .. well...
Started with some jazz, female vocalist, and it wasn't too bad. But low key cello would rattle the driver's cone, and higher notes would ... simmer? Kinda like a cymbal swell.
Then I tried some Daft Punk, to test that extreme curve... that didn't go so well.
Those little drivers were making lots of cone noise and rattle at the lower frequencies, and the higher frequencies were drowned in distorsion. All garbled up and not something pleasant to to listen to.
Lowered everything, kept the same curve but went down instead of up, and it got a little better, but still no very enjoyable. Played around with different EQ curves, but I couldn't get both ends to get fixed and sound good.
So, for very low level listening without bass, it is ok, but as soon as I crank it up a bit, it all comes apart.
I can record the sounds it makes later. You'll hear what I mean.
When I see that EQ curve I think that you would be doing your short line array a favor if you had a subwoofer to cover the below 100 Hz response. The higher frequencies can benefit from some EQ at levels a bit less than the suggested curve. This addition of a sub and some high end EQ would create a much better balanced system than EQ'ing the life out of them on the low end.
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I tried to ask for Xmax specs, but got no answer.
When I meant lower level... it was really lower, a level that only a completely quiet room would be adequate. I'm not about to build a line array that I can't hear because at normal listening level, it rattles. Also, Norman got me onto the right track when he mentioned there must be some frequency modulation distortion, the bass is modulating the midrange and highs. It is.
I'll try to bring them up and let the sub handle sub 140Hz frequencies. Hopefully the high end distorsion will disappear.
Time flies... weather's crappy... I have a little time to do things.
Found another 3" driver locally. No specs besides it is 8 Ohms, and handles 15W.
Got a couple sent to test.
It's not as airy as the first one, but it handles frequency a hair better. It doesn't break down all over when pushed like the first one I got. Soundwise, it's not great, but it's not complete crap either.
Very different construction... and some of the same too.
First one was a beast at 375g a driver. This new one... a mere 85g! Also a lot easier to install on the baffle surely.
Best thing about it... it costs $3 a driver! Dirt cheap, but obviously of lower quality. Still, I am tempted to get 30 more (that'd be $100 for a set of 16 drivers each, that's hard to beat!) and finish what I started... and keep the other 2 arrays at 9 drivers each and use them as surrounds.
Here it is compared to the original I got:
Found another 3" driver locally. No specs besides it is 8 Ohms, and handles 15W.
Got a couple sent to test.
It's not as airy as the first one, but it handles frequency a hair better. It doesn't break down all over when pushed like the first one I got. Soundwise, it's not great, but it's not complete crap either.
Very different construction... and some of the same too.
First one was a beast at 375g a driver. This new one... a mere 85g! Also a lot easier to install on the baffle surely.
Best thing about it... it costs $3 a driver! Dirt cheap, but obviously of lower quality. Still, I am tempted to get 30 more (that'd be $100 for a set of 16 drivers each, that's hard to beat!) and finish what I started... and keep the other 2 arrays at 9 drivers each and use them as surrounds.
Here it is compared to the original I got:
Attachments
Hmmm.. talking to myself?
Test box 1 is complete.
I have no resources here. I have never heard an array. There are so many things I have to learn. Yet, I have always loved music making, and music reproduction... so this is something I wanted to do for a long time.
A long time ago, I got the bug for good music, good movie sound, etc... and I never had the money to indulge myself into outrageous setups... by choice. I have many hobbies and like to keep busy. There's always something new and interesting around the corner. But music has always been there. So, DIYing seemed to be the best approach to getting close to what I dreamed of.
You know, people can tell you things, but when it comes to feelings, I always thought it was best experienced first hand.
So, when you guys told me 6 drivers is not an array, I believed you, but I still needed to try. I got this 9 drivers small array done. Hooked it up. Now I know. Sitting in the sweet spot (right in the middle of the "tower"), it sounds amazing. Stand up and walk away, and the magic is gone. I now can imagine what a 25-driver array sounds like. Must be amazing. I now know why short arrays have short-comings. I got a taste. Still, in this case... as long as I keep the frequencies above 150Hz, it sounds really good. So I used my subs to cover anything under.
I can now hear the "lacking" of my MP3 files, and would love to have more flac files in my libraries.... or a turntable!
At this point, I don't know if I am going to continue expanding to 16 drivers into my "short" array. I can hear why you need 25 or more. And I am not sure it is an option for me.... the wife might not let me populate the living room with a couple of imposing towers.
I would love to, though!
So, one more step onto the path of sound nirvana... will never come close, but can always aspire to reach...
Test box 1 is complete.
I have no resources here. I have never heard an array. There are so many things I have to learn. Yet, I have always loved music making, and music reproduction... so this is something I wanted to do for a long time.
A long time ago, I got the bug for good music, good movie sound, etc... and I never had the money to indulge myself into outrageous setups... by choice. I have many hobbies and like to keep busy. There's always something new and interesting around the corner. But music has always been there. So, DIYing seemed to be the best approach to getting close to what I dreamed of.
You know, people can tell you things, but when it comes to feelings, I always thought it was best experienced first hand.
So, when you guys told me 6 drivers is not an array, I believed you, but I still needed to try. I got this 9 drivers small array done. Hooked it up. Now I know. Sitting in the sweet spot (right in the middle of the "tower"), it sounds amazing. Stand up and walk away, and the magic is gone. I now can imagine what a 25-driver array sounds like. Must be amazing. I now know why short arrays have short-comings. I got a taste. Still, in this case... as long as I keep the frequencies above 150Hz, it sounds really good. So I used my subs to cover anything under.
I can now hear the "lacking" of my MP3 files, and would love to have more flac files in my libraries.... or a turntable!
At this point, I don't know if I am going to continue expanding to 16 drivers into my "short" array. I can hear why you need 25 or more. And I am not sure it is an option for me.... the wife might not let me populate the living room with a couple of imposing towers.
I would love to, though!
So, one more step onto the path of sound nirvana... will never come close, but can always aspire to reach...
Attachments
Hi great work !
I have become very recently interested in line arrays in order to build a IRS of the poor guy ...
Just one question about drivers spacing
Is there a formula for calculating the max space ?
They need to be very very close ?
Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino
Hello and sorry to jump in.
Where i could find a seller for this driver ?
I guess the concept is similar to the one used in the new Cambridge Audio speakers that are getting excellent reviews.
One other very short question about spacing between drivers
I see that you placed them very close one to each other.
How much space is too much ?
Thanks a lot indeed for the excellent 3D.
Kind regards,
gino
Driver spacing in line arrays using full range drivers
Hi Gino,
Regarding driver centre to centre spacing in line arrays with full range drivers....
(1) Basically the closer the better....With all conventional cones, domes, ribbons compression drivers etc.
There is lots of research available... Have a Google at the extreme engineering involved in Pro Sound line arrays.
In home audio the coverage goals are very different, but still manufacturers always strive to minimise C to C distances.
(2) The flip side is you can only get small C to C distances with small drivers....
That means no bass, low power handling, low efficiency, low dynamic range, no slam and high SPL....And absolutely no Home Cinema!
Use bigger drivers to get all the power and dynamics etc and you get no top end so you have to add in a crossover and a line of high frequency drivers...
(3) IMO 4 inch to 5 inch is the sweet spot for full range drivers in Line Arrays.
(4) DSP and Eq is essential....All drivers benefit from good studio grade (like Blue Cat or Fab Filter) Eq. This is now so easy and low cost ie JRiver with the BC or Fab Filter plug In.
(5) On wall with shallow cabinet or in wall with any cabinet depth ( within reason!) is ideal. Way, way, way better acoustically than freestanding, and perfect WAF!
(6) If using conventional drivers the minimum height of the line array must be at least 70% of your floor to ceiling height. The taller the better, with 85% being the best trade off between sound quality and practicality.
Over the last few years I have been developing a 4.5 inch Neo Magnet version of a BMR driver.
It is perfect for Line Arrays and has some unique abilities which break a lot of the rules that restrict conventional drivers in line arrays.
In particular the almost 180 degree horizontal and vertical coverage makes it possible to do things in arrays that no other driver can.
I hope to have some cool DIY kits available next year.
Anyway I don't want to ramble on Percevals thread, feel free to PM me if you want more info.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Gino,
Regarding driver centre to centre spacing in line arrays with full range drivers....
(1) Basically the closer the better....With all conventional cones, domes, ribbons compression drivers etc.
There is lots of research available... Have a Google at the extreme engineering involved in Pro Sound line arrays.
In home audio the coverage goals are very different, but still manufacturers always strive to minimise C to C distances.
(2) The flip side is you can only get small C to C distances with small drivers....
That means no bass, low power handling, low efficiency, low dynamic range, no slam and high SPL....And absolutely no Home Cinema!
Use bigger drivers to get all the power and dynamics etc and you get no top end so you have to add in a crossover and a line of high frequency drivers...
(3) IMO 4 inch to 5 inch is the sweet spot for full range drivers in Line Arrays.
(4) DSP and Eq is essential....All drivers benefit from good studio grade (like Blue Cat or Fab Filter) Eq. This is now so easy and low cost ie JRiver with the BC or Fab Filter plug In.
(5) On wall with shallow cabinet or in wall with any cabinet depth ( within reason!) is ideal. Way, way, way better acoustically than freestanding, and perfect WAF!
(6) If using conventional drivers the minimum height of the line array must be at least 70% of your floor to ceiling height. The taller the better, with 85% being the best trade off between sound quality and practicality.
Over the last few years I have been developing a 4.5 inch Neo Magnet version of a BMR driver.
It is perfect for Line Arrays and has some unique abilities which break a lot of the rules that restrict conventional drivers in line arrays.
In particular the almost 180 degree horizontal and vertical coverage makes it possible to do things in arrays that no other driver can.
I hope to have some cool DIY kits available next year.
Anyway I don't want to ramble on Percevals thread, feel free to PM me if you want more info.
Cheers
Derek.
No worries!
When you say shallow cabinets, what are you figuring? (depth or volume wise)
That BMR driver looks interesting.
parts-express has the Hiwave BMR for not too much money. Too bad I can not get it here.
HiWave HIBM65C20F-8 3-1/2" BMR Full-Range Speaker 8 Ohm | 297-2156
When you say shallow cabinets, what are you figuring? (depth or volume wise)
That BMR driver looks interesting.
parts-express has the Hiwave BMR for not too much money. Too bad I can not get it here.
HiWave HIBM65C20F-8 3-1/2" BMR Full-Range Speaker 8 Ohm | 297-2156
Shallow cabinets
Hiya,
By shallow cabinets I mean small front to back depth...This minimises baffle step problems.
Also it stops the rear wall reflection causing problems as the reflection is so close ( in time) to the direct sound the ear brain is not upset.
Flush in wall reduces both these problems to zero...
The small 2inch and 3 .5 inch BMR's are really very low quality...Not Hi Fi grade at all...TV only.
The Ferrite magnet versions are also low end as the huge ferrite magnet causes echoes and standing / resonance between suspension / cone and magnet.
Cheers
D.
Hiya,
By shallow cabinets I mean small front to back depth...This minimises baffle step problems.
Also it stops the rear wall reflection causing problems as the reflection is so close ( in time) to the direct sound the ear brain is not upset.
Flush in wall reduces both these problems to zero...
The small 2inch and 3 .5 inch BMR's are really very low quality...Not Hi Fi grade at all...TV only.
The Ferrite magnet versions are also low end as the huge ferrite magnet causes echoes and standing / resonance between suspension / cone and magnet.
Cheers
D.
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