I am fine using regular 18 awg cable. It is definitely eaiser to install.
Crossing over at 60 hz is exactly what I want to hear. From what I have heard with car audio I don't like the subs at 100 hz. Crossing at 60 will make it much harder to pinpoint sub location as well, and make the speakers sound more powerful.
I am planing one sub up front and one in the back corner. If it works with the room accoustics that is.
I will have 3 sub hook up locations along each side and one in each back corner just in case. It is alot cheaper to run wire before hand.
The front will be a false wall so I will be able to do anything behind it.
Crossing over at 60 hz is exactly what I want to hear. From what I have heard with car audio I don't like the subs at 100 hz. Crossing at 60 will make it much harder to pinpoint sub location as well, and make the speakers sound more powerful.
I am planing one sub up front and one in the back corner. If it works with the room accoustics that is.
I will have 3 sub hook up locations along each side and one in each back corner just in case. It is alot cheaper to run wire before hand.
The front will be a false wall so I will be able to do anything behind it.
On the other hand, if you experiment with XO into the low 100+ range when using wideband drivers for the mains, and particularly the centre, I think you'll find a bit more headroom. It's amazing what a change of 30Hz can do in that respect at this end of the spectrum - and after trying multiple (at least 2) smaller subs vs a single larger, I'd never go back to the single. Even with a single mono mixed LFE channel it makes a huge difference in terms of distribution and evening out hot / null spots
BTW, isn't 80Hz the default LFE XO point recommended by THX? Any lower than that could well limit headroom of 10P's in the front row with more "vigorous" effects content - you know, the blowed 'em good explosions and car crashes etc.
FWIW: from Audyssey's site:
BTW, isn't 80Hz the default LFE XO point recommended by THX? Any lower than that could well limit headroom of 10P's in the front row with more "vigorous" effects content - you know, the blowed 'em good explosions and car crashes etc.
FWIW: from Audyssey's site:
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I see what you are saying. Ultimately the room, and interaction of the speakers in what ever boxes I end up using, will decide. If it ends up sounding better to cross at 80 or 100 than so be it. I also have not heard the Rythmik subs in the 60 to 100 range either.
I am shooting for a well balanced system where all the components complement each other and the sum is greater than all the parts. so to speak.
I also want to see my wife's jaw hit the floor, because she thinks this is all a waste of time.
Don't forget I am not trying to go for thx 105-115db. 80db is plenty. I am just looking for a excellent quality 80db from 20hz on up to what ever my ears can still hear!
I also plan to use the system as well for music Jazz oldies etc.
I am shooting for a well balanced system where all the components complement each other and the sum is greater than all the parts. so to speak.
I also want to see my wife's jaw hit the floor, because she thinks this is all a waste of time.
Don't forget I am not trying to go for thx 105-115db. 80db is plenty. I am just looking for a excellent quality 80db from 20hz on up to what ever my ears can still hear!
I also plan to use the system as well for music Jazz oldies etc.
The two greatest reasons for me to not use CAT cable for speakers is the candy colour look and the relatively delicate insulation.
I prefer the fairly common (down-under) twin and earth in 1.5 or 2.5 square mm. Earth doubled up - it isn't worth trying to get a hold of pure twin in this style since it's use is rare these days due to the electrical standards used down under. Robust, a relatively neutral white outer insulation that's easy to handle and plenty of copper that's pretty flexible as long as you don't buy single core.
Can we not waste anymore time blathering about (de)merits of wire type and gauges, and get back to the more relevant issues of design / configuration of the HT system itself?
If the application specs haven't changed since the opening few posts, 10Ps for front row and, if keeping with paper cones, CHP70s for all 4 channels of effects surrounds should be a great system. Got me thinking again about redoing my own - thanks, I think?
If the application specs haven't changed since the opening few posts, 10Ps for front row and, if keeping with paper cones, CHP70s for all 4 channels of effects surrounds should be a great system. Got me thinking again about redoing my own - thanks, I think?
I agree on the wire issue. I can nail down what I am going to use after the boxes are built.
I am actually planning on using 7 10p speakers. If there is a single sound from the back speaker I want it to sound the same as the front. My reason for going with 7.2 is some blue rays are recorded in 7.2. I think as time goes on this will become more common.
Hey Dave if you are reading this, I shot you a email on this site a while back did You get it?.
I am looking to see if plans for the mar-ken 10p are out, and the cost for a cad program for seven of them and two sub boxes will be.
I found a local cnc wood shop with a low hourly rate. Feel free to pm me the cost.
I am actually planning on using 7 10p speakers. If there is a single sound from the back speaker I want it to sound the same as the front. My reason for going with 7.2 is some blue rays are recorded in 7.2. I think as time goes on this will become more common.
Hey Dave if you are reading this, I shot you a email on this site a while back did You get it?.
I am looking to see if plans for the mar-ken 10p are out, and the cost for a cad program for seven of them and two sub boxes will be.
I found a local cnc wood shop with a low hourly rate. Feel free to pm me the cost.
Fair enough - particularly if the system is used in the "multi-channel stereo" mode, which in the case of my Denon 5.1 rig means substantially higher SPL levels from the rears.
Are there actually 2 noticeably discrete (as in "stereo") LFE channels in 7.2?, or does the second serve some other purpose?
I gave up on trying to keep up with the latest hard media formats, and haven't played even a standard DVD in at least a couple of years, nor watched a Blu-ray, other than in demo showrooms. After 45yrs in this game, the only thing that's certain is that technology never stops and every media format - physical or virtual will be superceded. A quick google/Wikepedia search will return the current champ for surround as 22.2 - can you imagine how much fun that'd be to install / calibrate?
Any bets on how / when 4K will be surpassed at "affordable" prices?
Are there actually 2 noticeably discrete (as in "stereo") LFE channels in 7.2?, or does the second serve some other purpose?
I gave up on trying to keep up with the latest hard media formats, and haven't played even a standard DVD in at least a couple of years, nor watched a Blu-ray, other than in demo showrooms. After 45yrs in this game, the only thing that's certain is that technology never stops and every media format - physical or virtual will be superceded. A quick google/Wikepedia search will return the current champ for surround as 22.2 - can you imagine how much fun that'd be to install / calibrate?
Any bets on how / when 4K will be surpassed at "affordable" prices?
To my understanding it is recorded as 7.1. When You use the sound management system it calibrates them seperatly on a true 7.2 receiver. This should help the subs dissapear.
I am hoping to have it sound like the bass is coming from the speakers and not the subs!
I knew about 11.2 and 22.2 but that is beyond my budget. It is also somewat pointless because at this point sound is not recorded like that (for the general consumer). With 4k, 8k, and up coming over the horizon that may change.
I am building this system as funds are availible and it seems like sound tecnology changes the least. That is why I am starting with sound first. I am hoping a led 4k projector will be on the market next year. I would like the sound system I build to be up to date for at least 10-15 years. I know the projector and screen will change much more rapidly. Have you seen this? Sony Global - Life Space UX | 4K Ultra Short Throw Projector
Way too rich for me....
I am hoping to have it sound like the bass is coming from the speakers and not the subs!
I knew about 11.2 and 22.2 but that is beyond my budget. It is also somewat pointless because at this point sound is not recorded like that (for the general consumer). With 4k, 8k, and up coming over the horizon that may change.
I am building this system as funds are availible and it seems like sound tecnology changes the least. That is why I am starting with sound first. I am hoping a led 4k projector will be on the market next year. I would like the sound system I build to be up to date for at least 10-15 years. I know the projector and screen will change much more rapidly. Have you seen this? Sony Global - Life Space UX | 4K Ultra Short Throw Projector
Way too rich for me....
What is a true 7.2 receiver?
It has two separate LFE channels? ...It equalizes two separate subwoofers just as it equalizes seven separate speaker channels?
What are the most discrete separate channels that are contained in a movie medium?
And what are the most discrete separate channels (non-derived) that we can have in our home theater rooms (total number of speakers and subwoofers).
Is it a good thing to have eleven speakers (Audyssey DSX and dts Neo:X) and four subwoofers (for good balance) in our amusement/entertainment rooms?
What is accurate movie surround sound reproduction, and what is not?
What is the very best movie surround sound experience? ...Like say from a flick like 'Gravity' with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround soundtrack.
How much faith should we allow in Auto Room Correction & EQ systems?
How important is to acoustically treat our rooms? ...For both movies and stereo music?
What is the difference in sound quality between movies (on Blu-rays) and music (on Blu-ray Audio, DVD-Audio, SACD, hi-res audio downloads, CDs, LPs, R-2-R tapes, and cassette tapes)?
How many speakers are best; two or three or four or five or six or seven or an infinity of them?
Can mirrors add sound reverberations in a room?
It has two separate LFE channels? ...It equalizes two separate subwoofers just as it equalizes seven separate speaker channels?
What are the most discrete separate channels that are contained in a movie medium?
And what are the most discrete separate channels (non-derived) that we can have in our home theater rooms (total number of speakers and subwoofers).
Is it a good thing to have eleven speakers (Audyssey DSX and dts Neo:X) and four subwoofers (for good balance) in our amusement/entertainment rooms?
What is accurate movie surround sound reproduction, and what is not?
What is the very best movie surround sound experience? ...Like say from a flick like 'Gravity' with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 surround soundtrack.
How much faith should we allow in Auto Room Correction & EQ systems?
How important is to acoustically treat our rooms? ...For both movies and stereo music?
What is the difference in sound quality between movies (on Blu-rays) and music (on Blu-ray Audio, DVD-Audio, SACD, hi-res audio downloads, CDs, LPs, R-2-R tapes, and cassette tapes)?
How many speakers are best; two or three or four or five or six or seven or an infinity of them?
Can mirrors add sound reverberations in a room?
how long is a piece of string?
do you have secret arcane knowledge as to the answers for any of the above questions?
To my thinking there's a big difference between whatever number of LFE channels - for impact and "envelopment", and what we might want to call "subs" in the sense of bottom end of music program. Now when an easy to use and affordable surround processor (whether in a receiver or separates ) will allow for bass management & bi-amping of 3 front row main channels as well as the prevailing number of LFE channels, and do so with seamless transparency and lack of artifacts, I might get excited. But as few of us can afford the 6 figures or more required for dedicated "ideal" systems, I won't flagellate myself over the short comings of what I have. That $150 - 200K can buy a lot of vegetables and Pinor Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot ... you get the picture.
It's been my experience that multiple smaller woofers is far more effective in dealing with room modes and uneven distribution than any digital EQ.
do you have secret arcane knowledge as to the answers for any of the above questions?
To my thinking there's a big difference between whatever number of LFE channels - for impact and "envelopment", and what we might want to call "subs" in the sense of bottom end of music program. Now when an easy to use and affordable surround processor (whether in a receiver or separates ) will allow for bass management & bi-amping of 3 front row main channels as well as the prevailing number of LFE channels, and do so with seamless transparency and lack of artifacts, I might get excited. But as few of us can afford the 6 figures or more required for dedicated "ideal" systems, I won't flagellate myself over the short comings of what I have. That $150 - 200K can buy a lot of vegetables and Pinor Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot ... you get the picture.
It's been my experience that multiple smaller woofers is far more effective in dealing with room modes and uneven distribution than any digital EQ.
There is only one LFE channel, just as there is only one front center channel.
But some people can use two front center channel speakers and equalize them separately.
...Different speaker's positions requires different equalizations (below and above or flanking each side of the screen).
The same is valid with multiple subwoofers; two or more. ...For a better overall bass balance @ all listening positions (or close enough).
And some people use eight surround speakers. ...But only four are truly discrete recorded material by the mixing/recording movie sound engineers.
The most discrete we have right now is 7.1 (in our homes). Stuff like 9.2, 11.3, etc., is just to make life easier and fun to play with (audio people are like that).
This is a forum for mainly regular people with normal home theater rooms and living rooms.
If it would be for professional commercial IMAX and Cineplex Theaters then we can add a few more stuff in the room. ...Atmos, etc.
Sorry for the mirror-effect reflection/deflection.
But some people can use two front center channel speakers and equalize them separately.
...Different speaker's positions requires different equalizations (below and above or flanking each side of the screen).
The same is valid with multiple subwoofers; two or more. ...For a better overall bass balance @ all listening positions (or close enough).
And some people use eight surround speakers. ...But only four are truly discrete recorded material by the mixing/recording movie sound engineers.
The most discrete we have right now is 7.1 (in our homes). Stuff like 9.2, 11.3, etc., is just to make life easier and fun to play with (audio people are like that).
This is a forum for mainly regular people with normal home theater rooms and living rooms.
If it would be for professional commercial IMAX and Cineplex Theaters then we can add a few more stuff in the room. ...Atmos, etc.
Sorry for the mirror-effect reflection/deflection.
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Sounds like a fun project.
Why Yamaha?
How many of them?
And why are you saying that "I am hoping they will not always be needed."?
Yes, next year they'll be cheaper and better front projectors.
I like Sony in that category. ...But who knows next year.
Wow..
My main reason for posting here was for the sound end of things.
Primarily I want to use the 10p speaker and I am trying to build a balanced system around this speaker. I am looking for a box that sounds and looks good.
I mentioned the receiver incase anyone knew of a better one for the price point.
Some 7.2 receivers simply use a splitter and do not calibrate the subs separately. That is what I meant by true.
The majority of the theatre stuff I can post in a different forum. I just wanted to give a quick overview of what I am doing.
So to recap I am looking at 7 10p speakers. When I am not watching movies (and just listening to music) I may want to turn off the 2 subs.
I am looking for good boxes to put the speakers in, thus my question about the mar-ken box.
I want to use the 15 inch subs because of an experience at a friends house with a 20 inch sub. sq was horrible but the impact was awesome. If the Rythmik subs blend with the 10p speakers the result should be awesome. If the room needs a third sub that can be added later on as I have stated.
I want to use a receiver for simplicity. Just one unit to turn on and off. The Rythmik subs have a auto on/off feature and the projector I pick will as well.
My main reason for posting here was for the sound end of things.
Primarily I want to use the 10p speaker and I am trying to build a balanced system around this speaker. I am looking for a box that sounds and looks good.
I mentioned the receiver incase anyone knew of a better one for the price point.
Some 7.2 receivers simply use a splitter and do not calibrate the subs separately. That is what I meant by true.
The majority of the theatre stuff I can post in a different forum. I just wanted to give a quick overview of what I am doing.
So to recap I am looking at 7 10p speakers. When I am not watching movies (and just listening to music) I may want to turn off the 2 subs.
I am looking for good boxes to put the speakers in, thus my question about the mar-ken box.
I want to use the 15 inch subs because of an experience at a friends house with a 20 inch sub. sq was horrible but the impact was awesome. If the Rythmik subs blend with the 10p speakers the result should be awesome. If the room needs a third sub that can be added later on as I have stated.
I want to use a receiver for simplicity. Just one unit to turn on and off. The Rythmik subs have a auto on/off feature and the projector I pick will as well.
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1. Which model Yamaha receiver?
2. Does it equalize (parametric) the bass below 32Hz?
3. Two subs are better than one, and without two subs (or more) a home theater is not complete, IMHO.
4. Are you more into Blu-ray movies, multichannnel SACDs, or some' else?
5. For multichannel music best is five full range speakers (clean 20Hz).
I am posting here for the exact same reason as yours; the best surround sound experience.
* I like what Audyssey MultEQ XT32 does in my own room with my nine speakers and two subs. My system is very modest, and my speakers are all different.
Some people prefer ARC from Anthem, others MCACC from Pioneer, in tandem with REW, others they use a separate program like Dirac Live, or Acourate.
Modest receivers with XT32 (Audyssey) are from Onkyo/Integra, Marantz/Denon.
Low bass (sub EQ) is probably the most important acoustical aspect of any room with both music and movies. ...And bass content is available in some medium recordings @ 5 to 20Hz. ...Let's make that 10Hz. ...Or 15Hz to 20Hz.
2. Does it equalize (parametric) the bass below 32Hz?
3. Two subs are better than one, and without two subs (or more) a home theater is not complete, IMHO.
4. Are you more into Blu-ray movies, multichannnel SACDs, or some' else?
5. For multichannel music best is five full range speakers (clean 20Hz).
I am posting here for the exact same reason as yours; the best surround sound experience.
* I like what Audyssey MultEQ XT32 does in my own room with my nine speakers and two subs. My system is very modest, and my speakers are all different.
Some people prefer ARC from Anthem, others MCACC from Pioneer, in tandem with REW, others they use a separate program like Dirac Live, or Acourate.
Modest receivers with XT32 (Audyssey) are from Onkyo/Integra, Marantz/Denon.
Low bass (sub EQ) is probably the most important acoustical aspect of any room with both music and movies. ...And bass content is available in some medium recordings @ 5 to 20Hz. ...Let's make that 10Hz.
...Or 15Hz to 20Hz.Sorry for sounding defensive. I didn't know where all that was coming from.
1. I am looking at the rx a730 or a830. they don't have hdmi2.0 this year, but I expect they will next year.
2. I don't know I should email them.
3. I understand.
4. Blu-ray for now. Soon it will be UHD on to a 120" screen :<)
5. If I flip to zone 2 I can always shut off the back to speakers.
I have read that it always sounds best with identical speakers. I am hoping to build a system that can't be bettered with out exponentially more cost.
1. I am looking at the rx a730 or a830. they don't have hdmi2.0 this year, but I expect they will next year.
2. I don't know I should email them.
3. I understand.
4. Blu-ray for now. Soon it will be UHD on to a 120" screen :<)
5. If I flip to zone 2 I can always shut off the back to speakers.
I have read that it always sounds best with identical speakers. I am hoping to build a system that can't be bettered with out exponentially more cost.
No sweat, you sound perfectly fine and friendly.
{I'm the one who jumped in unannounced, and with verve.}
And you are right; identical speakers all around is the very best, or @ least from the same manufacturer with identical drivers for timbre matching. Anyway you have that covered; I don't.
Personally I would use a system like Audyssey MultEQ XT32, which is in the Onkyo TX-NR818 AV receiver ($599-699) for example. It uses over 10,000 FIR filters (Frequency Response and Time Domain) and down to 10Hz (from 10Hz to 24kHz). ...Bass frequencies are the main emphasis.
It has two sub outputs but equalize them as one (summing up), which is fine.
* Do some research into that receiver; you might be interested. And it seems to be within your budget.
Yamaha doesn't equalize the bass below 32Hz, even in their flagship AV receivers; don't need to call them, just google to confirm my saying.
HDMI version 2.0 is just too new for now that I don't know any product yet to have it, unless some Sony 4K front projectors. ...And 4K content is very sparse and mainly from a Sony movie server.
For a Blu-ray player; Oppo BDP-105D ($1,200) or 103D ($600). If using the HDMI connections; 103D.
'Gravity 3D' should look awesome on a 120" screen.
{I'm the one who jumped in unannounced, and with verve.}
And you are right; identical speakers all around is the very best, or @ least from the same manufacturer with identical drivers for timbre matching. Anyway you have that covered; I don't.
Personally I would use a system like Audyssey MultEQ XT32, which is in the Onkyo TX-NR818 AV receiver ($599-699) for example. It uses over 10,000 FIR filters (Frequency Response and Time Domain) and down to 10Hz (from 10Hz to 24kHz). ...Bass frequencies are the main emphasis.
It has two sub outputs but equalize them as one (summing up), which is fine.
* Do some research into that receiver; you might be interested. And it seems to be within your budget.
Yamaha doesn't equalize the bass below 32Hz, even in their flagship AV receivers; don't need to call them, just google to confirm my saying.
HDMI version 2.0 is just too new for now that I don't know any product yet to have it, unless some Sony 4K front projectors. ...And 4K content is very sparse and mainly from a Sony movie server.
For a Blu-ray player; Oppo BDP-105D ($1,200) or 103D ($600). If using the HDMI connections; 103D.
'Gravity 3D' should look awesome on a 120" screen.
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