Hi All,
I'm having trouble deciding between Fostex 206en or 166en for a. My current reference is a pair of Altec Lansing 605b I inherited from my grandfather who built them. Upon first hearing those I realized what I had been missing. The mid range! All commercial speakers I've heard seem to have lots of bass and decent treble but no depth in the mid range.
I'm a professional classical musician and as such hear music with a critical ear and as an expression of life. When I put on a recording of a great violinist or violist (i'm a violist btw) I want it to sound like he's in the room. I've experienced that with the Altecs and am looking for something similar at an affordable price ~$100-150/driver.
Ultimately I plan to build 2 pair. 1 for the living room--currently a large open room ~15'x40' with oak floors, and 1 for my private teaching studio--carpeted and size of a large bedroom but an off L shape though this will change w/in 5 years so the studio speakers need to be good no matter what studio sized room they're in.
I haven't decided if I will add a sub or not. I know that it's better to, but am trying to keep cost down. I'm more likely to add a sub at home than the studio since it will get more use.
Aesthetically my favorite design so far is the abby. I'm also toying with the the idea of something from the spawn family. I would prefer to keep the project simple and do not want to design it from scratch nor have to fuss with a bunch of calculations. Am looking to use someone's pre-existing plans.
So, am I headed in the right direction or should I consider something else?
Thanks for the help.
I'm having trouble deciding between Fostex 206en or 166en for a. My current reference is a pair of Altec Lansing 605b I inherited from my grandfather who built them. Upon first hearing those I realized what I had been missing. The mid range! All commercial speakers I've heard seem to have lots of bass and decent treble but no depth in the mid range.
I'm a professional classical musician and as such hear music with a critical ear and as an expression of life. When I put on a recording of a great violinist or violist (i'm a violist btw) I want it to sound like he's in the room. I've experienced that with the Altecs and am looking for something similar at an affordable price ~$100-150/driver.
Ultimately I plan to build 2 pair. 1 for the living room--currently a large open room ~15'x40' with oak floors, and 1 for my private teaching studio--carpeted and size of a large bedroom but an off L shape though this will change w/in 5 years so the studio speakers need to be good no matter what studio sized room they're in.
I haven't decided if I will add a sub or not. I know that it's better to, but am trying to keep cost down. I'm more likely to add a sub at home than the studio since it will get more use.
Aesthetically my favorite design so far is the abby. I'm also toying with the the idea of something from the spawn family. I would prefer to keep the project simple and do not want to design it from scratch nor have to fuss with a bunch of calculations. Am looking to use someone's pre-existing plans.
So, am I headed in the right direction or should I consider something else?
Thanks for the help.
Tall order trying to approach performance of 605s with any FR driver, much less in the $100-150 range, but you might to add Alpair 10 or 12P , or SEAS F22 to your short list.
Of the current Fostex that I've heard and /or are within your budget, I'd suggest the FF165 or 225WK - mind you with the latter, a tweeter might very be considered mandatory
In the larger room (600ft^2), you'll almost certainly need bass support, and from my experience a couple of smaller "sub's" provide more even distribution
Of the current Fostex that I've heard and /or are within your budget, I'd suggest the FF165 or 225WK - mind you with the latter, a tweeter might very be considered mandatory
In the larger room (600ft^2), you'll almost certainly need bass support, and from my experience a couple of smaller "sub's" provide more even distribution
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Thanks for the suggestions. Did you mean the 225wk? I couldn't find a 205wk online. Also had a hard time finding the SEAS F22. Could you provide a link? I could maybe stretch the budget a bit.... but remember there's a wife to convince too 
helps a little that she's also a musician.
Something I might consider is moving the 605s to the living room where I'd rather do more of the music listening anyway. Right now they're in the basement in my dedicated theater room. That might take some of the "pressure" off the performance requirement since music is really where it matters. Also, the altec's are in octaginal cabinets that have 1" thick solid slate tops and were built to double as end tables.
helps a little that she's also a musician.Something I might consider is moving the 605s to the living room where I'd rather do more of the music listening anyway. Right now they're in the basement in my dedicated theater room. That might take some of the "pressure" off the performance requirement since music is really where it matters. Also, the altec's are in octaginal cabinets that have 1" thick solid slate tops and were built to double as end tables.
Thanks for the suggestions. Did you mean the 225wk? I couldn't find a 205wk online. Also had a hard time finding the SEAS F22. Could you provide a link? I could maybe stretch the budget a bit.... but remember there's a wife to convince too
Yes, typo on the model number
Sounds like a plan.... of course that might require a new rig for the "theatre"
There's a hole in the bucket dear Liza, dear Liza
SEAS F22:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-fullrange/seas-prestige-fa22rcz-h1597-08-8-fullrange/
Dave, what sized box did we put these in?
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My current theater setup uses the altec's for the front and 4 jamo classic 4 bookshelfs for the satellites, jamo center, and 1 jamo sub. Pioneer 1523k receiver. If I move the altec's to the LR I'd likely stick with one of the short list speakers and just use them in the theater.
For the 225 what do you recommend for a tweeter? I'm leaning against that route though cause the decent ones I've heard of, t90, for example would effectively double or triple the cost of each speaker.
What kind of enclosures are best for the wks, seas, and alpair? plans for those seem to be a bit harder to find. Any recommendations? Or are they pretty much interchangeable with the designs I'm already considering (abby inspired/spawn family double horn)?
One day I may also try my hand at building a low wattage class A or tube amp for the listening room... but not anytime soon. So, I'm a fan of highly efficient speakers.
In my shoes, which from that short list would you build a pair of for a main music stereo set (figure adding a sub) and which would you build if it were going to be for the front L/R speakers in a dedicated theater (14'x20')?
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Only if you limit yourself to Fostex horn tweeters. Which are very good, but there are alternatives out there; some of the magnetostatic / isodynamic tweeters (they look & in many ways behave like ribbons in terms of the results you get, though technically are different) are very good performers.
605b? You're going to have a difficult time matching that with widebanders. Altec knew what they were doing (audio understatement of the year there?) Not that widebanders are bad (the good ones can be very good) but you're not comparing like with like. That said, midrange is what they generally do well. The 225 as Dave & Chris suggest, + supporting tweeter (try a HiVi or Monacor) would be a good choice. Ditto for the Alpair 12P, although it's not quite as large. Some rate the larger Audio Nirvana drivers, although I'd be a trifle wary -the necessary enclosure sizes get very big for optimal performance (generally a lot larger than the boxes nominally recommended). I keep meaning to do a big vented box for that one using one of my preferred quasi-pro audio alignments.
605b? You're going to have a difficult time matching that with widebanders. Altec knew what they were doing (audio understatement of the year there?) Not that widebanders are bad (the good ones can be very good) but you're not comparing like with like. That said, midrange is what they generally do well. The 225 as Dave & Chris suggest, + supporting tweeter (try a HiVi or Monacor) would be a good choice. Ditto for the Alpair 12P, although it's not quite as large. Some rate the larger Audio Nirvana drivers, although I'd be a trifle wary -the necessary enclosure sizes get very big for optimal performance (generally a lot larger than the boxes nominally recommended). I keep meaning to do a big vented box for that one using one of my preferred quasi-pro audio alignments.
I am using the 166en drivers, and I like them a lot. But you will need a woofer/subwoofer with them. On an 24" wide by 36" tall open baffle, they seem to roll off somewhere south of 200 hz. I use Eminence Alpha 15 woofers with a 12 db/octave active crossover set at about 125 hz, and no supplemental crossover on the Fostex's, and this seems about right.
Yup. This is not a problem. There are crossovers, and then there are crossovers. Bad ones cause problems. Good ones should not. And generally do not. Alas, not all of them are good. It depends what it is you are doing. Although as a personal thing, I would avoid one around the 2Khz - 3KHz region, where human hearing is at its peak efficiency, like the plague.
I've heard all but two on that list in a range of enclosures, so my observation entails some extrapolation - but a short answer would be that all can deliver outstanding results in "appropriate" designs, the downsides being:
- several of those (both Fostex FEs and the Alpair12P) that entails "largish" enclosures to maximum LF extension (but then that's relative);
- for a lot of folks the 206 and 225s would need tweeters (not necessarily any harder to implement than getting the main enclosure right for a specific room - just often doubling the cost of drivers and XO components to do so seamlessly)
I'm currently quite enamored of the Alpair 10P - in 6-12months from now, that could change
- several of those (both Fostex FEs and the Alpair12P) that entails "largish" enclosures to maximum LF extension (but then that's relative);
- for a lot of folks the 206 and 225s would need tweeters (not necessarily any harder to implement than getting the main enclosure right for a specific room - just often doubling the cost of drivers and XO components to do so seamlessly)
I'm currently quite enamored of the Alpair 10P - in 6-12months from now, that could change
IMO (so take that very much for what it's worth -i.e. not much)
-FE166En. Good driver of its type. Quite flat extended response for a unit with a whizzer cone & a step forward from the old E series model. Designed with high output impedance amplification in mind (applies to all En series drivers). Usual HF response drop off-axis. Reasonably high sensitivity. Ideally needs a large back horn if you want reasonable bass extension without Eq, additional shelving filters etc.
-FE206En. Similar remarks as above, but trades higher sensitivity & greater dynamic range against midband & HF performance compared to the smaller unit. Again (more so given the lower Q) needs a large back horn if you want reasonable LF extension sans Eq, filters etc.
-FF165wk. Similar comments to 166, but more flexible in terms of load. No whizzer = a benefit but less HF extension, so a tweeter can be helpful. Reasonable LF performance & sensitivity for a unit of its type.
-FF225wk. More flexible in terms of practical loads than the 206. No whizzer again = a benefit, but it requires a tweeter unless you are after a speaker without any HF. Minor breakup mode in the midband; not difficult to fix. Reasonable sensitivity & LF performance for a driver of its type.
-Alpair 10P. Smallest driver mentioned here & greatest useable HF extension. Quite flat cone profile so polar response more even over a wide range (i.e. it doesn't beam as much in the HF as some). Useful LF extension similar to the FF225wk & can go in smaller cabinets; plenty of possible load options. Sensitivity lower of course compared to the larger drivers but not bad for what is a relatively small unit. Response probably the most linear of the lot (these things are relative: we're talking wideband drivers of > nominal 3in here). Probably the highest micro-resonant sensitivity of the lot (viz. 'detail') & very large linear excursion to ensure decent dynamic range for a unit of its size & rated sensitivity. Can't get around that, it's just the laws of physics. Big self-damped polymer frame.
-Alpair 12P. Similar to 10P but larger & slightly higher sensitivity / dynamic range. HF extension not quite as great as the 10P but exceptional for a single-cone unit of its size. Very flat cone profile so polar response quite even for a driver of its size (HF beams less than most, inc. the smaller 10P). Very micro-resonant sensitive (again not quite as high as the smaller unit but not far off). Doesn't go quite as low as the smaller driver trading a bit of extension for sensitivity, but reasonable & a wide variety of possible loads. Big self-damped polymer frame. Arguably the most advanced wideband drive unit on the market today in engineering terms.
-Seas FA22RCZ. Exactly what you'd expect from Seas when designing a driver of this kind. Linear for a driver of its type, nicely built, parameters balanced to allow a wide range of possible loads. Trades a bit of sensitivity to get that & more LF extension compared to the 206, which is its size / typology equivalent. Cone interestingly rough texture when viewed up close. Doesn't do much wrong within the design context & little to irritate, so compared to the Fostex it might seem a bit bland -arguably more accurate however. YMMV on that. Construction typical Seas; you can see / feel where your money has gone. Perhaps slightly conservative in design terms, as well realised as you would expect. One of the best drivers of its size & typology on the market; much of the performance of the Exotic for about 1/7 the price.
Not that it matters, of the drivers referred to I like the 12P, but that says more about my own taste than it necessarily does about the drivers. The 225 + suitable tweeter would probably be next, along the 10P.
-FE166En. Good driver of its type. Quite flat extended response for a unit with a whizzer cone & a step forward from the old E series model. Designed with high output impedance amplification in mind (applies to all En series drivers). Usual HF response drop off-axis. Reasonably high sensitivity. Ideally needs a large back horn if you want reasonable bass extension without Eq, additional shelving filters etc.
-FE206En. Similar remarks as above, but trades higher sensitivity & greater dynamic range against midband & HF performance compared to the smaller unit. Again (more so given the lower Q) needs a large back horn if you want reasonable LF extension sans Eq, filters etc.
-FF165wk. Similar comments to 166, but more flexible in terms of load. No whizzer = a benefit but less HF extension, so a tweeter can be helpful. Reasonable LF performance & sensitivity for a unit of its type.
-FF225wk. More flexible in terms of practical loads than the 206. No whizzer again = a benefit, but it requires a tweeter unless you are after a speaker without any HF. Minor breakup mode in the midband; not difficult to fix. Reasonable sensitivity & LF performance for a driver of its type.
-Alpair 10P. Smallest driver mentioned here & greatest useable HF extension. Quite flat cone profile so polar response more even over a wide range (i.e. it doesn't beam as much in the HF as some). Useful LF extension similar to the FF225wk & can go in smaller cabinets; plenty of possible load options. Sensitivity lower of course compared to the larger drivers but not bad for what is a relatively small unit. Response probably the most linear of the lot (these things are relative: we're talking wideband drivers of > nominal 3in here). Probably the highest micro-resonant sensitivity of the lot (viz. 'detail') & very large linear excursion to ensure decent dynamic range for a unit of its size & rated sensitivity. Can't get around that, it's just the laws of physics. Big self-damped polymer frame.
-Alpair 12P. Similar to 10P but larger & slightly higher sensitivity / dynamic range. HF extension not quite as great as the 10P but exceptional for a single-cone unit of its size. Very flat cone profile so polar response quite even for a driver of its size (HF beams less than most, inc. the smaller 10P). Very micro-resonant sensitive (again not quite as high as the smaller unit but not far off). Doesn't go quite as low as the smaller driver trading a bit of extension for sensitivity, but reasonable & a wide variety of possible loads. Big self-damped polymer frame. Arguably the most advanced wideband drive unit on the market today in engineering terms.
-Seas FA22RCZ. Exactly what you'd expect from Seas when designing a driver of this kind. Linear for a driver of its type, nicely built, parameters balanced to allow a wide range of possible loads. Trades a bit of sensitivity to get that & more LF extension compared to the 206, which is its size / typology equivalent. Cone interestingly rough texture when viewed up close. Doesn't do much wrong within the design context & little to irritate, so compared to the Fostex it might seem a bit bland -arguably more accurate however. YMMV on that. Construction typical Seas; you can see / feel where your money has gone. Perhaps slightly conservative in design terms, as well realised as you would expect. One of the best drivers of its size & typology on the market; much of the performance of the Exotic for about 1/7 the price.
Not that it matters, of the drivers referred to I like the 12P, but that says more about my own taste than it necessarily does about the drivers. The 225 + suitable tweeter would probably be next, along the 10P.
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"Best" is always a risk to reply too, but the first few that'd come to mind:
If you can afford the required floor space for rear mouth horn, take a look at the FHXL
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/246248-frugel-horn-xl-alpair-10-3-10p.html
or perhaps Woden Silbury? (fee for plans)
Woden Design | Silbury
For a slightly more compact footprint floorstander, the Pensil10P (front vented MLTL) ,
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf
or smaller stand mount Scott's BR
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/250751-bass-reflex-standmounts-10-3-10p.html
If you can afford the required floor space for rear mouth horn, take a look at the FHXL
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/246248-frugel-horn-xl-alpair-10-3-10p.html
or perhaps Woden Silbury? (fee for plans)
Woden Design | Silbury
For a slightly more compact footprint floorstander, the Pensil10P (front vented MLTL) ,
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf
or smaller stand mount Scott's BR
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/250751-bass-reflex-standmounts-10-3-10p.html
Yes (an educated from experience). To the largest extent in the bottom, but openess and the ability to dissapear and to have DDR can be different to. I have only heard A10p in FHxl where its performance is outstanding. We built 2 pair, 1 has stock drivers and 1 treated drivers, the latter having an edge up. Mark himself heard the stock A10p ones and was amazed at the bottom we were getting.
Chris also tried them in the Brines ML-TL, he didn't like them as much, still good and the smaller footprint might give enuff WAF difference to give it the practical edge.
FHxl, FH3, Pensil7
dave
Chris also tried them in the Brines ML-TL, he didn't like them as much, still good and the smaller footprint might give enuff WAF difference to give it the practical edge.
FHxl, FH3, Pensil7
dave
Note that the Brines enclosures were originally built for 10.2s, and quite possibly not optimal for the 10P - at least with the original amount of fill - but after living with FH3s with numerous drivers over the past several years, I've grown to appreciate the combination of bass extension, dynamics and wider soundstage that the rear mouth horn can deliver. The same can be said for the taller Woden Monolith BLH (Maeshowe, Silbury, Avebury), but those do present WAF issues for some folks.
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