overall it is working out as an excellent driver that you can turn up and not worry.
Great intelligibility, low cost.
Sweetest sweet spot is maybe 2 people wide (11'), but can be room filling pleasing also especially with non high freq stuff like piano.
It sits on the floor under the tv.
Getting serious output to 100hz was a goal achieved.
Missing lower 60hz bass drum thunk due to driver rolling off around 100hz (sealed).
Remember I'm used to double 15's with F5 around 27hz.
Perhaps a passive notch can be used with active crossover for 100hz.
I don't want to run 10 band equalizer and active crissover (yuck).
3 shipped from mcm (it said 97 day wait and was trying to cancel order, go figure).
Norman
Great intelligibility, low cost.
Sweetest sweet spot is maybe 2 people wide (11'), but can be room filling pleasing also especially with non high freq stuff like piano.
It sits on the floor under the tv.
Getting serious output to 100hz was a goal achieved.
Missing lower 60hz bass drum thunk due to driver rolling off around 100hz (sealed).
Remember I'm used to double 15's with F5 around 27hz.
Perhaps a passive notch can be used with active crossover for 100hz.
I don't want to run 10 band equalizer and active crissover (yuck).
3 shipped from mcm (it said 97 day wait and was trying to cancel order, go figure).
Norman
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a little more headway today.............
Added a 80hz F-mod to a pair of F3 around 35hz (tuned to 27hz) 15's on floor (sideways so couch arm blocks them from sight).
A welcome addition for foundation, and turned fane's 30/60hz sliders back to 0 from +3db.
Went from " really good but.........." to "really good.".
Not yet sure if phase is in (hadn't time to check).
Norman
Added a 80hz F-mod to a pair of F3 around 35hz (tuned to 27hz) 15's on floor (sideways so couch arm blocks them from sight).
A welcome addition for foundation, and turned fane's 30/60hz sliders back to 0 from +3db.
Went from " really good but.........." to "really good.".
Not yet sure if phase is in (hadn't time to check).
Norman
has to be copper cap (or maybe a shorting ring).
The Z-plot and climbing response mixed with a floppy qts demands this.
Maybe get rid of the copper cap, use a stronger motor then you'd have 50hz F3's with a smaller box.
Qts around .4 would make box around 4ft3 with F3 tuned at 45hz, liveable without a sub to me.
A stronger magnet would cause more high freq climbing.
Then again, at my lower volumes (probably no more than 80db at listening spot), when 2khz notched, I find the climbing response fine (needed), even +3db needed at 16khz on eq. It looks scary on the manufacturor's graphs, but it is not.
We have to remember what this driver was designed for, not for us, but guitar or floor monitor I'd bet.
Not the midbass monster I'd hoped for (compared to what I'm used to), but works well with a sub.
The Z-plot and climbing response mixed with a floppy qts demands this.
Maybe get rid of the copper cap, use a stronger motor then you'd have 50hz F3's with a smaller box.
Qts around .4 would make box around 4ft3 with F3 tuned at 45hz, liveable without a sub to me.
A stronger magnet would cause more high freq climbing.
Then again, at my lower volumes (probably no more than 80db at listening spot), when 2khz notched, I find the climbing response fine (needed), even +3db needed at 16khz on eq. It looks scary on the manufacturor's graphs, but it is not.
We have to remember what this driver was designed for, not for us, but guitar or floor monitor I'd bet.
Not the midbass monster I'd hoped for (compared to what I'm used to), but works well with a sub.
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I was once told that 7 kHz is the ideal lower crossover point. Good 78's seem to prove this as they sound full range. I wonder if this driver would nicely cross at 10 kHz to an actively driven tweeter like Swan Isodynamic. There is an 8 dB difference in output so needs to be active. I would use a first order crossover using a nice capacitor as it protects the driver from DC which true active will not. The driver is recomended at 5 kHz second order, 10 kHz 1 st seems fine ( try 7 kHz as it might be ideal, I have used a Swan driver this way ). For first attempts even a humble TDA2030/40/50 might do. If set up with a high input impedance the existing pre amp should drive it like it wasn't there. If that idea is useful the the main driver chassis might be the heat sink. That sort of is in the spirit of an idea like this.
On my 12 LTa I tried this with a very cheap DT 74/8. This is about the same output as the 12 Lta. 6 kHz passive was settled on, 10 kHz reallly didn't help and 8 kHz was doubtful ( No 12 Lta filter after a few attempts, think the choke does harm lower down ). This seems about right and is very subtle in how it adds. This tweeter starts to roll about 15 kHz so also gets a boost. A much better tweeter than I thought possible for $12. I have an improvised phase plug using a 31 x 113 mm tight foam paint roller. It almost touches the dust cap and it held by a 1920's style spring curtain track. On, off and on again in 1 minute . I use the curtain track eyes to fix to the 12 and 6 o'clock driver screws. Black heat shink to make it look right on the white spring. A hole was drilled in the roller to pass the spring through. It allows adjustment and never slips. I painted the dust cap alone with wood glue ( PVA , 2 coats 10% water ). I have been trying a soft join from the roller to the dust cap. Cotton wool might do something? It seems what I have its almost as good as it gets. The one thing I have over my Magnepans is a wider window. Thw tweeter must be helping and the phase plug as this was not so a few months ago. One thing I like about my speakers is the music follows me around the house. With the Maggies I doubt they would last long doing that. Mostly I think mine suit me better. The Maggies have one quality I really like. The will do the least harm to 1970's TV or movies and music recorded the same way. The problem is the recording, somehow it matters and the Maggies do it better. As you say not bad to come this close with a PA drive unit. I use a cheap 15 inch driver to get some bass power. The baffle is 4 x 2 foot and with EQ does 40 Hz seemingly flat and decent output at 30 Hz. This set up is 100 % passive and has only two 1 st order crossovers. The rest is what a mildy improved Quad 33/303 can do. This was only meant as a try it out solution. I haven't bothered with what was intended. Even though the load is about 3 ohms or less the amp never gets above warm as the sound output is very high. At this warm point the whole street can hear the music ( 8 houses ). I have some valve amps with a friend miles away. What I call front to back ultra linear. Very simple and very low distortion without loop feedback ( my rejection of the RH 34 design ). One day they wil be used.
I am using a Linn LP12 Ekos DL110. I did a gain change on the Quad M1 board and can say the DL 110 sweet spots the pre amp. The 33 has about a +/- 3 dB window on gain. At this point it is surprisingly good. Most will never know. In the end I built a bespoke pre amp. It is one op amp stage and uses 470 nF with the PU to get the 75 uS ( coil 160 R ). The DL 110 will do it OK. No other I tried did. The rest is active 3180/318 with a 2 uS passive output filter ( 220R 10 nF, also stops hum loop in psu ). The gain is 38 dB which feeds nicely into the Quad Radio 2 input which is very high Z and 100 mV ( mimics what Quad do ). Looking at the signal path it has very few active parts. The LP12 has been unused for years as I had something better. I have to say it is rather good. One op amp I tried was NE5532, it was not bad in this set up and very cheap ( we are talking a $1000 sound for $10 total ). The pre amp was a mistake I made remebering a Tobey and Dinsdale design of 1961. In this one off appliction the mistake works. The advantage being all the nasty things are dealt with before the op amp starts it's work. I never much liked the Denon DL 110 in the past. I played a hunch it was that it suited no common pre amp. The hunch was right and it is not far behind my Lyra Helikon. It might outshine the DL 103 if not the 103R. It is very refinded yet given the chance forceful. I used the mass device supplied to make the arm work better. The Linn Ekos is a really nice arm. It looks like it shouldn't be. I bought it like people buy into a cult so strange it is now I really like it. Mostly arms that mimic it I do not like. The sound in your face, not the Ekos. This one was to go back to the factory as the bearings had been set at 16 C. It was the first batch. I never bothered and had no problems. My bearings might be super tight, yet not too tight. If wondering these speakers will show these solutions as real high end. I have been around high end for years so have an idea what I should aim for.
On my 12 LTa I tried this with a very cheap DT 74/8. This is about the same output as the 12 Lta. 6 kHz passive was settled on, 10 kHz reallly didn't help and 8 kHz was doubtful ( No 12 Lta filter after a few attempts, think the choke does harm lower down ). This seems about right and is very subtle in how it adds. This tweeter starts to roll about 15 kHz so also gets a boost. A much better tweeter than I thought possible for $12. I have an improvised phase plug using a 31 x 113 mm tight foam paint roller. It almost touches the dust cap and it held by a 1920's style spring curtain track. On, off and on again in 1 minute . I use the curtain track eyes to fix to the 12 and 6 o'clock driver screws. Black heat shink to make it look right on the white spring. A hole was drilled in the roller to pass the spring through. It allows adjustment and never slips. I painted the dust cap alone with wood glue ( PVA , 2 coats 10% water ). I have been trying a soft join from the roller to the dust cap. Cotton wool might do something? It seems what I have its almost as good as it gets. The one thing I have over my Magnepans is a wider window. Thw tweeter must be helping and the phase plug as this was not so a few months ago. One thing I like about my speakers is the music follows me around the house. With the Maggies I doubt they would last long doing that. Mostly I think mine suit me better. The Maggies have one quality I really like. The will do the least harm to 1970's TV or movies and music recorded the same way. The problem is the recording, somehow it matters and the Maggies do it better. As you say not bad to come this close with a PA drive unit. I use a cheap 15 inch driver to get some bass power. The baffle is 4 x 2 foot and with EQ does 40 Hz seemingly flat and decent output at 30 Hz. This set up is 100 % passive and has only two 1 st order crossovers. The rest is what a mildy improved Quad 33/303 can do. This was only meant as a try it out solution. I haven't bothered with what was intended. Even though the load is about 3 ohms or less the amp never gets above warm as the sound output is very high. At this warm point the whole street can hear the music ( 8 houses ). I have some valve amps with a friend miles away. What I call front to back ultra linear. Very simple and very low distortion without loop feedback ( my rejection of the RH 34 design ). One day they wil be used.
I am using a Linn LP12 Ekos DL110. I did a gain change on the Quad M1 board and can say the DL 110 sweet spots the pre amp. The 33 has about a +/- 3 dB window on gain. At this point it is surprisingly good. Most will never know. In the end I built a bespoke pre amp. It is one op amp stage and uses 470 nF with the PU to get the 75 uS ( coil 160 R ). The DL 110 will do it OK. No other I tried did. The rest is active 3180/318 with a 2 uS passive output filter ( 220R 10 nF, also stops hum loop in psu ). The gain is 38 dB which feeds nicely into the Quad Radio 2 input which is very high Z and 100 mV ( mimics what Quad do ). Looking at the signal path it has very few active parts. The LP12 has been unused for years as I had something better. I have to say it is rather good. One op amp I tried was NE5532, it was not bad in this set up and very cheap ( we are talking a $1000 sound for $10 total ). The pre amp was a mistake I made remebering a Tobey and Dinsdale design of 1961. In this one off appliction the mistake works. The advantage being all the nasty things are dealt with before the op amp starts it's work. I never much liked the Denon DL 110 in the past. I played a hunch it was that it suited no common pre amp. The hunch was right and it is not far behind my Lyra Helikon. It might outshine the DL 103 if not the 103R. It is very refinded yet given the chance forceful. I used the mass device supplied to make the arm work better. The Linn Ekos is a really nice arm. It looks like it shouldn't be. I bought it like people buy into a cult so strange it is now I really like it. Mostly arms that mimic it I do not like. The sound in your face, not the Ekos. This one was to go back to the factory as the bearings had been set at 16 C. It was the first batch. I never bothered and had no problems. My bearings might be super tight, yet not too tight. If wondering these speakers will show these solutions as real high end. I have been around high end for years so have an idea what I should aim for.
Got my fane 250tc really loud today (running wide open with F-mod 6db 80hz rolling dual 15's tuned to 27hz).
80's dance music.
Thumpy and bumpy bass, finally............
Not the small speaker plus subwoofer bass (gutless and thumpy), more like bass of a big 3-way, but time aligned.
Think I'm done.
That was the goal, full range driver strong (to me) down to 100hz.
With enough cone area to feel it.
Now I'm thinking left/right big boxes like I had b4 for pioneer B20 (15" deep x 24" wide x 39" tall).
My 3.2ft3 sealed needs a bit of cut at 125hz.
Fred tested the qts of his fane around .8
6ft3 should make for a .7 qtc sealed box.
Should make for an awesome (but limited dispersion) home theater.
Could make someone happy on an open baffle.
Norman
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- need more Karlsons bad
If you dont mind paying international postage you can get fane 250 from Blue Aran in the UK.
Blue Aran - Professional Sound and Lighting
Blue Aran - Professional Sound and Lighting
trying something different.
took out equalizer, 24db active crossing fane.
100hz, no midbass, no impact.
150hz works really well, wow will it get loud !!!!!!!
Lincoln park, Destiny's child, Yin Yang twins.
Not the usual fare for full range drivers, but I like time alignment and intelligibility but was raised on basshead 15's.
Need to try on some movies to check impact, and leave it setup for a week or so.
Norman
took out equalizer, 24db active crossing fane.
100hz, no midbass, no impact.
150hz works really well, wow will it get loud !!!!!!!
Lincoln park, Destiny's child, Yin Yang twins.
Not the usual fare for full range drivers, but I like time alignment and intelligibility but was raised on basshead 15's.
Need to try on some movies to check impact, and leave it setup for a week or so.
Norman
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