With my own hearing rather abused over the years ( including 24/7 tinnitus) yes, I'd tend to agree - although some folks ascribe a general "naturalness" to paper cones . Maybe they've not heard a decent pair of metal cones such as Mark's better work, or the Jordans? I dunno, and don't particularly care to get into that bladder voiding contest yet again.
Dave's recovery is progressing slowly - we were out this past weekend at a friend's celebration of life for a few hours, and he was able to motor around well enough with the aid of a single cane - but he did avail himself of a chair. I'm sure he still gets tired while he slowly regain muscle mass and stamina - he's certainly dodged a large calibre round on this one. Having to recall the painfully protracted decline we saw in our friend Terry over the past decade, and passings in both of our own immediate families certainly puts everything into perspective.
Dave's recovery is progressing slowly - we were out this past weekend at a friend's celebration of life for a few hours, and he was able to motor around well enough with the aid of a single cane - but he did avail himself of a chair. I'm sure he still gets tired while he slowly regain muscle mass and stamina - he's certainly dodged a large calibre round on this one. Having to recall the painfully protracted decline we saw in our friend Terry over the past decade, and passings in both of our own immediate families certainly puts everything into perspective.
As Chris says… six of one, half a dozen of the other. The metals do have to be well broken in to get there. The metal cone probably has a more accurate top end, the paper what i call vintage. In the bottom the horn dominates and the small extension difference one gets in similarily tuned bass reflex boxes is pretty much moot.
There are stereotypical sounds assigned to metal vrs paper cones, and, while much less, this is very much present in the last generation Jordan (JX92), and the 1st generation Mark Audio. With the 1st generation A7 Mark set this stereotype on its head, redefining what is possible. With later generations he has polished them even further. I haven’t heard them but reposts are that the Jordan Eikona has also made this kind of transition.
While there is a consistent voicing difference with A6.2m/A6.2p, A10.3/A10p, A12/A12.2p with the A7.3/A7p we get a situation where the A7p is closer to the stereotypical metal sound, the metal coned driver closer to that of paper. It really shows how important the details of execution are.
dave
There are stereotypical sounds assigned to metal vrs paper cones, and, while much less, this is very much present in the last generation Jordan (JX92), and the 1st generation Mark Audio. With the 1st generation A7 Mark set this stereotype on its head, redefining what is possible. With later generations he has polished them even further. I haven’t heard them but reposts are that the Jordan Eikona has also made this kind of transition.
While there is a consistent voicing difference with A6.2m/A6.2p, A10.3/A10p, A12/A12.2p with the A7.3/A7p we get a situation where the A7p is closer to the stereotypical metal sound, the metal coned driver closer to that of paper. It really shows how important the details of execution are.
dave
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Kevner: I LOVE my FHXLs. These are my first real effort at a full range speaker that uses a single driver and I have to admit there is something special about these. They cast an image into the room that is just amazing! My old set of speakers is gathering dust in the basement and I'm currently working on a center channel to match the FHXLs. I've only listened to the 10.3 driver and really had a hard time choosing between them. I spent forever comparing the spec sheets and the response curves and reading people's reactions here. While I like the higher sensitivity of the 10P (future build includes a 300B amp), I ultimately went with the 10.3 drivers because I tend to like a bit more treble to my speakers. Flat response always sounded boring to me, especially on top.
My 10.3 drivers have several hundred hours on them (daily use since July), so they are well broken in. The attached graph is the response that I measured from my completed FHXLs. They flank my 65" tv in an alcove in the room, so they are both corner loaded. The purple curve shows the driver wired directly to the amp, the green curve is with a notch filter that I added to smooth out the treble a bit. The notch filter is a 0.27mH coil, a 1.44uF cap, and a 28R resistor all in parallel. This filter is put in series with the driver. Ironically, it probably makes the 10.3 sound a bit more like the 10P driver.
I tend to be an endless tweaker, so the 10.3 provides the opportunity to dial in however much treble you personally like and to account for differences in room acoustics. Want more treble, just reduce the resistor to 15R or 20R.
On the bass side of things, I'm thinking most of us will have a hard time determining if one speaker reaches 4-5Hz lower than another speaker does...
Dave - glad to hear you are doing well!
My 10.3 drivers have several hundred hours on them (daily use since July), so they are well broken in. The attached graph is the response that I measured from my completed FHXLs. They flank my 65" tv in an alcove in the room, so they are both corner loaded. The purple curve shows the driver wired directly to the amp, the green curve is with a notch filter that I added to smooth out the treble a bit. The notch filter is a 0.27mH coil, a 1.44uF cap, and a 28R resistor all in parallel. This filter is put in series with the driver. Ironically, it probably makes the 10.3 sound a bit more like the 10P driver.
I tend to be an endless tweaker, so the 10.3 provides the opportunity to dial in however much treble you personally like and to account for differences in room acoustics. Want more treble, just reduce the resistor to 15R or 20R.
On the bass side of things, I'm thinking most of us will have a hard time determining if one speaker reaches 4-5Hz lower than another speaker does...
Dave - glad to hear you are doing well!
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Thanks for the compliment, Chris. Those gold colored drivers sure do match the cabinets well. Funny part is that I purchased them months before I decided on the wood for the cabinets. The baffles are bookmatched figured Bubinga hardwood and the rest is quartersawn Bubinga veneer. They are coated with 3 coats of Formby's Tung Oil Finish. For my center speaker, I'm using the materials left-over from my left and right speakers.
They may be called gold from the factory, but they are copper. There were gold drivers in the 1st generation, but gen 2 on they are copper.
dave
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nice to read more conversation on the FHXL's . I'll start with Eric. , very nice job on those XL's ,wish you were close, Oh you are close ,can have you finish my raw FHXL's !!!! why is your efficiency chart so low on these speakers ? Damping under driver? baffle compensator ? just asking . I'm perfectly happy with the 10p's, but my long time friend might like the 10.3, he's looking for a extra little sizzle to the highs. a ton of break in however. As for Dave and ChrisB its always a pleasure to hear their input . and great to have Dave doing better ....... Was that Terry Cain you were referring to , I built a pair of Abbys which I lost in a house fire about 7 years ago. Really liked them . anyway I have a dozen or so small tube amps that are all low powered 2 to 6 wpc. so don't want to loose any efficiency. that's why ill keep the paper drivers. and like I said keep this going, its stimulating and knowledgeable to me . while I can still hear. Guess I have to PM Eric to get where he live cant be far.
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There are a few of us here in PA. A few years ago, I sold a pair of my Avro cabinets to someone else from another forum, he was only an hour or so away.
My FHXLs were also my first real effort at making a speaker look nice. Adding the bubinga doubled the cost of the project (kinda blew the "frugel" part of the moniker), but I'm very pleased with how they turned out! As for the frequency response, just ignore the dB scale on the left side. I used REW to make these measurements and wasn't making any effort to accurately represent efficiency. I just adjusted the volume until REW reported a workable volume level for making the measurements. My point was simply to understand the overall frequency response. Guess I should have clipped off the left hand scale before posting.
After playing around with these, I'm fairly certain I would have been very pleased with the 10P drivers as well. The color match and tweaking the 10.3 drivers to taste are really just nice surprises at the end of the project!
My FHXLs were also my first real effort at making a speaker look nice. Adding the bubinga doubled the cost of the project (kinda blew the "frugel" part of the moniker), but I'm very pleased with how they turned out! As for the frequency response, just ignore the dB scale on the left side. I used REW to make these measurements and wasn't making any effort to accurately represent efficiency. I just adjusted the volume until REW reported a workable volume level for making the measurements. My point was simply to understand the overall frequency response. Guess I should have clipped off the left hand scale before posting.
After playing around with these, I'm fairly certain I would have been very pleased with the 10P drivers as well. The color match and tweaking the 10.3 drivers to taste are really just nice surprises at the end of the project!
kevner - any recent reference to Terry was likely to Terry Crabbe - local legendary figure in the audio business, and greater than life size character in many senses of that word. He'd recently passed away after a painful to watch decline.
As it turns out, I was also briefly acquainted with the other TC - ran into him at VSAC 2001 and 2003. Another bear of a man who left us far too soon.
As it turns out, I was also briefly acquainted with the other TC - ran into him at VSAC 2001 and 2003. Another bear of a man who left us far too soon.
I pm'd you to tell you exactly where I am . and now understand the chart/plot. I started this FR /SET endeavor after spending a ton of money on the other side of stereo which never really sounded good to me ,but its what most stereo shops were promoting back in the 70's and along with the underground magazines kept me stupidly spending more money on equipment that always was pretty far away from sounding real. the equipment I have now is a much better portrayal of what live music is supposed to sound like. Even the least if this FR/SET equipment sounds better than 3/4 way systems. and I know its always been around . I was just caught up in this commercialized crap. ok I'll stop there before I get riled up, never let them know what your thinking, yeah right
Kev - the boys at Sound Hounds were often able to detect when the latest issue of Absolute Sound or Stereophile came in - that was decades before "I was reading on the internet about this ......"
Of course, they could easily be accused of dispensing their own brand of addictive kool-aid - most often Scottish during my many laps chasing that brass ring on the merry-go-round during the late 70's to mid 80's. Then the kids came and that discretionary budget somehow just dried up .... hmmm
Of course, they could easily be accused of dispensing their own brand of addictive kool-aid
- most often Scottish during my many laps chasing that brass ring on the merry-go-round during the late 70's to mid 80's. Then the kids came and that discretionary budget somehow just dried up .... hmmm
Many would opine that it was all downhill as soon as more than one channel was involved.
For me, the first piece of "hi-fi" gear (still mono) was a late 50's RCA record player in the family room. I was far too young at the time to pay much attention to what was under the hood, but it was likely still tubed - probably a bit newer than 45DHT though. Played loud enough for me and my younger sisters. Then around 62/3? we really upscale in the living room to a stereo console - Silvertone, I think, with "Solid State" electronics, and Garrard record changer. My folks had more than a few dance parties with that puppy (Martin Denny, Herb Alpert, Sinatra, etc), and I can fondly remember a recording of the Mercury 7 blast off and excerpts of John Glenn orbital mission that came with one of the monthly science rags that my mom subscribed for me. Wow, there's some nostalgia for ya
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I have a pair of the A10.3 that I have been stewing over what enclosure to put them in. Based on what has been said about it in a FH-XL, I think that may be the way to go. It will require me to switch around my whole AV setup, and possibly move everything into another room which is smaller but better suited to have the speakers away from the wall. It is an L shaped room with the main area being 9' x 16'. I was going to put them on the 9 ft wall or in bottom of the L where I have more like 11' of space before it impedes on walkways/doorways.