I have a recurring itch that won't go away and may need to be scratched, and it has to do with full range speakers. I've heard some small, surround sound full range speakers, but nothing of any notable quality. I'm really tempted to try a full range build, but thought I'd canvas some more learned and experienced members before doing anything else. I'd likely be using one of the older SS amps (or decent quality receivers) that I currently have (at least for a while), and I'd like to keep the total cost of the drivers below $300.00 (the further below the better). There are two options that I'm currently considering, and I have a few questions.
Option 1. Would a full range build be a good option for a near field speaker? I'm currently using a set of Mirage M-190iS for near field listening (near my computer and PS3) and actually like them a lot. Nevertheless, if I can replace them with something that sounded better at low volume, then that might be interesting to try. Options could range from bookshelves to floorstanders up to four feet in height, but they would have to work well close to a wall (within a maximum distance of 8" or so, depending on the depth of the speaker).
Option 2. Would a full range build work well as a kitchen speaker? Here the speakers would have to be small with a high WAF (or SAF for those in other kinds of relationships--where S stand for spouse). They too would need to be near a wall and would need to sound good (or at least good enough) from multiple listening positions (e.g. cooking and eating). I don't have any speakers set up here yet, but can use a pair of PSB Intros for this purpose if the full range build isn't desirable.
Option 3. Should I abandon both projects as poor options for a full range build (keeping the speakers that I currently have), and continue to resist scratching my itch until I can choose a build that is better suited to the strengths of a full range design (a build for a dedicated listening room)?
Thanks.
Option 1. Would a full range build be a good option for a near field speaker? I'm currently using a set of Mirage M-190iS for near field listening (near my computer and PS3) and actually like them a lot. Nevertheless, if I can replace them with something that sounded better at low volume, then that might be interesting to try. Options could range from bookshelves to floorstanders up to four feet in height, but they would have to work well close to a wall (within a maximum distance of 8" or so, depending on the depth of the speaker).
Option 2. Would a full range build work well as a kitchen speaker? Here the speakers would have to be small with a high WAF (or SAF for those in other kinds of relationships--where S stand for spouse). They too would need to be near a wall and would need to sound good (or at least good enough) from multiple listening positions (e.g. cooking and eating). I don't have any speakers set up here yet, but can use a pair of PSB Intros for this purpose if the full range build isn't desirable.
Option 3. Should I abandon both projects as poor options for a full range build (keeping the speakers that I currently have), and continue to resist scratching my itch until I can choose a build that is better suited to the strengths of a full range design (a build for a dedicated listening room)?
Thanks.
FF85wk or Alpair 6.2 (either paper or metal) would suit.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/196061-3-driver-audition-fostex-mark-audio.html
dave
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/196061-3-driver-audition-fostex-mark-audio.html
dave
Option 1 and 2 are IMO some of the best way to use Full Rangers. In both situations the listener is easily placed in nulls caused by a XO from a typical dome and woofer setup. The full ranger is point source!
There is another way to do it a little be better, but requires a lot more money and complexity. That's to use a very robust dome tweeter and small woofer with a very low XO. But for less than $300, you'll blow the budget easy.
There is another way to do it a little be better, but requires a lot more money and complexity. That's to use a very robust dome tweeter and small woofer with a very low XO. But for less than $300, you'll blow the budget easy.
well, this being the Full Range forum, you're more likely to get answer of "yes, of course - now let's argue - oops - discuss which is "best" 
for your particular application
But really, a few questions should be considered before meaningful suggestions can be tendered, including - how "near-field' do you mean - for desktop computer, something like the Fostex FF85WK, Alpair 6P, Fountex FR88EX, any of numerous TangBands could suffice (I'm using the Fostex in 2 such locations myself, and Jeff is running A6Ps IIRC
And yes to the kitchen as well - most typically the only critical listening done here is to the spouse advising exactly how the veggies should be prepared - at least that's the case for me when she's brandishing a sharp chef's knife (not that I've ever given her cause to use it that way) and you can build a pretty decent sounding little speaker not much larger than a milk gallon container.
Last, but not least, there's no reason why you can't start with a small FR build for either of above instances, and continue on to the larger, more "serious" dedicated person-cave music listening room - or for that matter small home theatre set-up.
for your particular applicationBut really, a few questions should be considered before meaningful suggestions can be tendered, including - how "near-field' do you mean - for desktop computer, something like the Fostex FF85WK, Alpair 6P, Fountex FR88EX, any of numerous TangBands could suffice (I'm using the Fostex in 2 such locations myself, and Jeff is running A6Ps IIRC
And yes to the kitchen as well - most typically the only critical listening done here is to the spouse advising exactly how the veggies should be prepared - at least that's the case for me when she's brandishing a sharp chef's knife (not that I've ever given her cause to use it that way) and you can build a pretty decent sounding little speaker not much larger than a milk gallon container.
Last, but not least, there's no reason why you can't start with a small FR build for either of above instances, and continue on to the larger, more "serious" dedicated person-cave music listening room - or for that matter small home theatre set-up.
After modeling a seemingly zillion drivers, I'm kinda partial to the Tang-Band five incher, W5-1611SAF (90Db)..........My take is 3" are really too small to move much air....& the 6-8 inchers seem to break-up a little too easily..plus, pricing.
At $50 each, seems OK....And modeled with a 29 Liter(inside volume) enclosure with an Fb at 48 Hz...for an F3 of 42Hz..(82mmX173mm port) that seems down far enough. Simple, elegant.
___________________________________________________Rick..........
At $50 each, seems OK....And modeled with a 29 Liter(inside volume) enclosure with an Fb at 48 Hz...for an F3 of 42Hz..(82mmX173mm port) that seems down far enough. Simple, elegant.
___________________________________________________Rick..........
I have the earlier neo version. A nice driver, but does not have a whole lot of DDR (something important to me) and even thou reduced by my treatment has a "plasticy" kind of sound.
dave
Watch the BLACK FRIDAY sale at Parts Express.
Tang Band W8-1772 and W8-1808 are both well reviewed and can be used in different boxes as your needs change... now $200 each. You might see them and other Tang Band full range speakers on sale.
I have W8-1808 in a floor standing 4 cuft MLTL, but I also used them an a modest sealed box with digital equalization with good results.
There are several well reviewed small 2-way designs built with SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8 and SB29RDCN-000-4. A quick Google will provide several complete DIY-construction options.
SB15 BR (SB Heimkino Part 1) - Ausgabe Januar 2010 - Lautsprecherbau-Magazin 2010 | Lautsprecherbau
Tang Band W8-1772 and W8-1808 are both well reviewed and can be used in different boxes as your needs change... now $200 each. You might see them and other Tang Band full range speakers on sale.
I have W8-1808 in a floor standing 4 cuft MLTL, but I also used them an a modest sealed box with digital equalization with good results.
There are several well reviewed small 2-way designs built with SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8 and SB29RDCN-000-4. A quick Google will provide several complete DIY-construction options.
SB15 BR (SB Heimkino Part 1) - Ausgabe Januar 2010 - Lautsprecherbau-Magazin 2010 | Lautsprecherbau
I found a big Sanyo ghetto blaster in the dump ( double tape deck gone- excellent radio section ) and I took off the 4 inch- 4 Ohm- 6 (8) W speakers two days ago.
Yesterday I managed to put 'em in some pre-made boxes, all the labour was to ensure good contact with the baffle as they're designed to be mounted from the back.
Today I'm finishing and the pre-results are spect-ta-cu-lar
Edit. I did something similar one month ago with similar speakers - they were 3.2 Ω ! and worked very well with a 1+1 W amplifier dismantled from Sony Pc boxes ( the 8 pin DIP amplifiers ). Actually, the speakers have no box, just a ring around about 1 ".
I took off also the dustcap ( the one you see in my avatar eh eheh !!)
Yesterday I managed to put 'em in some pre-made boxes, all the labour was to ensure good contact with the baffle as they're designed to be mounted from the back.
Today I'm finishing and the pre-results are spect-ta-cu-lar
Edit. I did something similar one month ago with similar speakers - they were 3.2 Ω ! and worked very well with a 1+1 W amplifier dismantled from Sony Pc boxes ( the 8 pin DIP amplifiers ). Actually, the speakers have no box, just a ring around about 1 ".
I took off also the dustcap ( the one you see in my avatar eh eheh !!)
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+1 on the W5-1611. I have modeled it in many different alignments from BLH, double chamber reflex, MlTL, multi-channel horn BLH, etc. it is very versatile and sims show good performance. I have not actually listened to one but see many others positive comments. It is a bit large for desktop or kitchen counter use though. Another great full range driver is the Vifa TC9FD - works great for both computer or kitchen speakers. For kitchen use, you may want to go with dual drivers in one box for mono operation. Mono sounds better when used for background music to chop vegetables, and keeps box compact and you won't walk into and out of the stereo imaging.
Some great suggestions here. Thanks everyone.
I may wait for Xmas to buy some drivers (as a present to myself), but I like the idea of playing with some old discarded drivers in the interim as well (thanks picowallspeaker).
Near listening would be anywhere from 3'-6' (depending on whether anyone else is in the room with me). What would be some good cabinets for near field? Would a horn work? (I am building myself a small stereo stand and can easily make it narrower to accommodate some 8"-10" wide floorstanding speakers if that would be a sound upgrade, but remember, it's a relatively small space so everything has to go near the wall.)
Also, what would be some good cabinet options for the kitchen setup (and remember the importance of proximity to walls here as well)?
(p.s. I'm fairly sure that many people here probably have me on their 'ignore' list by now because of the various posts that I've made and likely regard me as either a nuisance, a scourge, or a vacuous idiot. So I wanted to add a special thinks to anyone who has read or even commented on some of my posts and helped me out anyway. It's nice to know there are people who are able to engage in open, critical discussions without taking it personally or holding grudges. Having read many posts by chrisb and Dave of planet10 over the past few years I must admit that I was not overly surprised to see them lending a helping hand, for they embody the ideal of community sharing present on this forum, as do others who have helped me here as well, but I do want to extend a special thanks to everyone for offering their comments and suggestions. As I said before, I really admire the honest and passionate sharing of ideas that happens on this forum and think the kind of open, democratic, immensely creative interaction that happens here is a model case for what is best about the the internet and other related information technologies.)
I may wait for Xmas to buy some drivers (as a present to myself), but I like the idea of playing with some old discarded drivers in the interim as well (thanks picowallspeaker).
Near listening would be anywhere from 3'-6' (depending on whether anyone else is in the room with me). What would be some good cabinets for near field? Would a horn work? (I am building myself a small stereo stand and can easily make it narrower to accommodate some 8"-10" wide floorstanding speakers if that would be a sound upgrade, but remember, it's a relatively small space so everything has to go near the wall.)
Also, what would be some good cabinet options for the kitchen setup (and remember the importance of proximity to walls here as well)?
(p.s. I'm fairly sure that many people here probably have me on their 'ignore' list by now because of the various posts that I've made and likely regard me as either a nuisance, a scourge, or a vacuous idiot. So I wanted to add a special thinks to anyone who has read or even commented on some of my posts and helped me out anyway. It's nice to know there are people who are able to engage in open, critical discussions without taking it personally or holding grudges. Having read many posts by chrisb and Dave of planet10 over the past few years I must admit that I was not overly surprised to see them lending a helping hand, for they embody the ideal of community sharing present on this forum, as do others who have helped me here as well, but I do want to extend a special thanks to everyone for offering their comments and suggestions. As I said before, I really admire the honest and passionate sharing of ideas that happens on this forum and think the kind of open, democratic, immensely creative interaction that happens here is a model case for what is best about the the internet and other related information technologies.)
I've been enjoying the 4" bamboo TB W4-1320SIF for some months now. I think it does very little wrong, save for being fairly beamy in the top-end, more than other drivers of comparable size I've tried. It does make it to 20kHz on-axis, cleanly so. Perhaps not the last word in detail or resolution, but it has an even sound all across and can actually make some bass in the right enclosure, which needs not be huge as well. It is of medium sensitivity and can work with a variety of amplification depending on the bass alignment. I'd like to see TB come up with a 5" or 6" version.
IG
IG
The mini Karlsonator with a couple of 3.5 in TC9FD drivers sounds great as a kitchen radio and works very well near a wall. It has advantage of very uniform directivity so you can walk around and it still sounds good. Use a small class D-amp (8 watt/ch TPA3110D2 from Sure is perfect). Connect L/R to separate drivers and get pseudo mono as sound combines in chamber behind aperture.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
Here is a sound clip as pseudo mono. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/360600d1374060687-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-vocals-1-mp3.zip
well there you go - even the "experts"
won't always reach consensus - FWIW, my vote's for the 1611 as a pretty enough made driver, decent enough bass, but rather uninspiring - "lifeless" / thin on detail / depth from mids on up
Ah, here we go again.....piling on the adjectives, lifeless, bland, uninspiring.........And Dave, plasticy ??? obviously not a metallic nor paper sounding in nature huh?
"Just the facts Ma'am" It seems the FR crowd descends into these type adjectives when we can't seem to come up with some hard numbers, facts, data.
The original poster wants true information here from us....anecdotes sprinkled in yes..it gives the discussion color, purpose, and makes for a good read......"looke' how pretty the cone looks!" By giving the reason why it sounds as it does the OP can make a fair & informed judgement...as to what will suit him best.
Yes indeed the shortcomings of FR drivers are numerous & difficult to balance out.
That in mind, I only had an enclosure modeling to work with..an F3 of about 42 Hz. Great, I think....try to model a 5" for an F3 near that for $50 with a common, easy to build enclosure.......OK, Another thing I noticed but can't seem to document at this time...As the diameters start going up , the break-ups start showing up more & more.
A "waveform" develops somewhat past 3K in frequency...looking at the responses on paper an undulating wave appears, a bobbing up & down in response all the way up to the nominal 20K. What's up with that?
I posed this question to a well known manufacturer and was met with a harsh condescending "that's the way they want it" "I tried a smooth response version before"....??
My conclusion? keep the diameters down, but not too small.5" seems about right.
_________________________________________________Rick.........
"Just the facts Ma'am" It seems the FR crowd descends into these type adjectives when we can't seem to come up with some hard numbers, facts, data.
The original poster wants true information here from us....anecdotes sprinkled in yes..it gives the discussion color, purpose, and makes for a good read......"looke' how pretty the cone looks!" By giving the reason why it sounds as it does the OP can make a fair & informed judgement...as to what will suit him best.
Yes indeed the shortcomings of FR drivers are numerous & difficult to balance out.
That in mind, I only had an enclosure modeling to work with..an F3 of about 42 Hz. Great, I think....try to model a 5" for an F3 near that for $50 with a common, easy to build enclosure.......OK, Another thing I noticed but can't seem to document at this time...As the diameters start going up , the break-ups start showing up more & more.
A "waveform" develops somewhat past 3K in frequency...looking at the responses on paper an undulating wave appears, a bobbing up & down in response all the way up to the nominal 20K. What's up with that?
I posed this question to a well known manufacturer and was met with a harsh condescending "that's the way they want it" "I tried a smooth response version before"....??
My conclusion? keep the diameters down, but not too small.5" seems about right.
_________________________________________________Rick.........
lifeless, bland, uninspiring... That happens when the driver is broken, i.e it has fallen on something thus producing internal cracks and fractures in the cone !
YEEEEAAAARGGHHHH! That's what I did today when mounting my vintage 4" FR in the box ! Pity me ! For making it faster, I took the electric screwdriver and it slipped...making a hole in the surround ! ****,****.glue, paintbrush pick pick pick pat pat pat. Dried. Been listening to cassettes because I managed to make alive an old tape deck. Great speakers...
A 5 " is hugeeee !!! Now we should be talking about the profile of the external suspension, right ??
YEEEEAAAARGGHHHH! That's what I did today when mounting my vintage 4" FR in the box ! Pity me ! For making it faster, I took the electric screwdriver and it slipped...making a hole in the surround ! ****,****.glue, paintbrush pick pick pick pat pat pat. Dried. Been listening to cassettes because I managed to make alive an old tape deck. Great speakers...
A 5 " is hugeeee !!! Now we should be talking about the profile of the external suspension, right ??
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Pity?.....no, I feel for ya' ......We do this stuff long enough & it's bound to happen. And it always seems to be the highest treasured driver that winds up being "holed". Nobody makes a "screwdriver proof" surround nether.
I haven't done one in quite some time & I don't let "mechanized" screwdrivers anywhere near the mounting holes.Even using drivers to drill pilot holes give me the heebie jeebies.Can't screw that one up you'd think...yes even that one can be screwed up.
_________________________________________________Rick..........
I haven't done one in quite some time & I don't let "mechanized" screwdrivers anywhere near the mounting holes.Even using drivers to drill pilot holes give me the heebie jeebies.Can't screw that one up you'd think...yes even that one can be screwed up.
_________________________________________________Rick..........
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