Fostex FF85wk and Mark Audio Alpair 6p tested against each other - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 23rd September 2013, 07:25 PM   #21
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
That is fair. I'd say the enclosure size and type are irrelevant and the dimensions are minor and should be considered when evaluating the results. Otherwise, ya, that's it. When you consider that, I think the comparison is valid.

I was editing my previous post in the meantime. The above comment is what I'd tend to disagree with - but then I'm not a measurement guy.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 07:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Sorry if I sound wound up. I am a little bit. Comments like

this



and this



aren't appreciated. If people think the data is useless, I welcome their measurement data, which tends to not exist on this forum. I don't claim to be some expert, or suggest that a frequency response plot will tell someone if they like the driver. But if the critics wanna be critics without basis, I welcome them to put their words into actions.

And that's definitely not directed at you Chris, as it was you that suggested I nab this pair to test. So I appreciate you seeking the data. Your ears obviously already confirmed the FF85wk sounds great. This only backs up your claim. And it sounds like you like the alpair 6p as well. So this backs that up also.

Sorry if my constructive criticism wound you up. As I mentioned earlier in my post, I do appreciate the effort to measure and post. Try not to read too far into my healthy skepticism, and try not to single out that aspect of my criticism as the only thing I said in that post. You should appreciate the fact that anyone around here is willing to call you out on your methods rather than to just take your data as the gospel. emotions aside, it is a valid concern that the box for the Alpair wasn't optimized and that the box for the FF85k was..

For instance, I have seen misleading information perpetuated by another member of this forum - Planet 10 about the driver I brought up - the FE83En.

Its posts like this:

fostex fe83en//ff85wk questions

And this:

Anyone try the Blumenstein Orca speaker?

That are a serious problem in our community.

(Where Planet 10 mentions that the FE83En has almost an octave less reach than it actually does...)

The assertion that the FE83En only goes to 160hz just couldn't be further from the truth. Yet no one calls his data into question, or even asks where he collected it from. And it's kind of awkward for me to have to step in and call this into question because I am a commercial entity.

But the fact is that the bass reflex enclosures around the FE83En that I and others have been making for several years--hundreds of pairs in my own case--have been confidently plunging into the 85hz range. The Fostex data sheet suggests tuning to roughly 90hz. It gets there no problem. And I do have the measurements to back up these tests.

So yes, I do take issue with the rigor of your study. Granted, you weren't a whole octave off like Dave has been on several instances, but still. Discrepancies should be duly noted.

Science is skepticism!

Best,

Clark
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Last edited by blumenco; 23rd September 2013 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 07:41 PM   #23
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The drivers are happisest in quite different size boxes, the FF85 likes 2.5 litre, the A6.2p 6.5 litre -- that & the slightly larger size, is what gives the Alpair a distinct edge in bass response, even in the microSize (2.5 litre) universal A6.2 box.

The test is what it is, and an important data point. Both are flatter & smoother than i expected to see in real-world measurements.

Thanx Ryan.

dave
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Old 23rd September 2013, 07:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
I was editing my previous post in the meantime. The above comment is what I'd tend to disagree with - but then I'm not a measurement guy.
What do you disagree with? That the volume and type of box matter? They only affect bass, which I clearly indicated I wasn't interested in testing. I'd have to go onto my driveway and test GP for that. Which I do sometimes, but is time consuming. I can assure you, the volume and type of box do not affect the >200hz region. Also, 7L stuffed and sealed is an alright box for the alp6p. I didn't just pull it outta my ___.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post
Sorry if my constructive criticism wound you up. As I mentioned earlier in my post, I do appreciate the effort to measure and post. Try not to read too far into my healthy skepticism, and try not to single out that aspect of my criticism as the only thing I said in that post. You should appreciate the fact that anyone around here is willing to call you out on your methods rather than to just take your data as the gospel.
I appreciate that and I shouldn't let it get to me. It was the piling effect of several posts, that are purely speculative and don't back up what they say. Your post was just one of a few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post

For instance, I have seen misleading information perpetuated by another member of this forum about the driver I brought up - the FE83En.

Look. Its important that we keep each other honest!!!

Its posts like this:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/219895-fostex-fe83en-ff85wk-questions.html

And this:

Anyone try the Blumenstein Orca speaker?

That are a serious problem in our community.

(Where Planet 10 mentions that the FE83En has almost an octave less reach than it actually does...)
I can't speak for P10, but my post in your first link is on page 2. I show my speaker measurement and you can see the major 2khz issue with the FE83. That's all I can say about the FE83. As for it's bass abilities, I lump it into the same category as these, no good. If you enjoy it down to 90hz or what ever, all the power to you. If you find one users comments inappropriate, that's separate from what I do. I'm an independant. I'm not associated with P10 other than I live near him, like his work, and have measured some of his speakers. Sometimes I'm not nice about the results either I pride myself as being neutral and blatantly honest about results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post

So yes, I do take issue with the rigor of your study. Granted, you weren't a whole octave off like Dave has been on several instances, but still. Discrepancies should be duly noted.

Science is skepticism!

Best,

Clark

Now I have an issue. Nothing in your post was able to display any issue with the rigor of my tests. All you did was complain about another member. Show me how my test procedure doesn't allow for reliable data for either of these drivers. Would you prefer I post separate threads for them, so they aren't comparible? Tell me, what are the "discrepancies" you see in my tests? Something doesn't jive with your results I assume? Feel free to post your results.

Remember, as I've said several times in this thread now, these tests weren't a matter of picking a winner. Just two drivers in two boxes. Want me to cut a chamfer on the alpair box and show you the extremely slight difference it makes? I'll do that, but before I do any more free work for a lounge chair critic, lets see something from you. I don't need to prove anything to you, but you actually sell something. I see your website doesn't have a single measurement. Feel free to post your commercial products performance here. I won't mind.

Something P10 has never done, is sit back and criticize my work without backing up his words.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 07:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post
(Where Planet 10 mentions that the FE83En has almost an octave less reach than it actually does...)

The assertion that the FE83En ... have been confidently plunging into the 85hz range.
It is possible to get FE83eN to go that low, but the BR tuning is not something i would ever consider using -- i could not derive a vented alignment i would use. And with even 1w in this sim excursion limits are exceeded all the way up to 300 Hz. It looks best in a sealed box, which reaches as deep as i claim.

dave
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Old 23rd September 2013, 07:59 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
The drivers are happisest in quite different size boxes, the FF85 likes 2.5 litre, the A6.2p 6.5 litre -- that & the slightly larger size, is what gives the Alpair a distinct edge in bass response, even in the microSize (2.5 litre) universal A6.2 box.

The test is what it is, and an important data point. Both are flatter & smoother than i expected to see in real-world measurements.

Thanx Ryan.

dave
THANK YOU!!!
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Old 23rd September 2013, 08:06 PM   #27
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Ryan - part of that was a gentle jest at the 2-way at the 2K less evil comment - perhaps in another thread (I get confused trying to multitask while at work), but as a non-measurement guy with over 50yrs of experience listening to a variety of commercial and DIY loudspeakers, FR and multi-way, what I'd more strenuously disagree with is your supposition that the enclosure size and type is irrelevant. Under test condiditons, to certain portions of bandwidth with swept signals - perhaps - but with dynamic wide bandwidth music, I think perhaps not.

as for continuing your conversation with Clark - careful what you wish for


edit ; and yes, I should have started off with a thanx for the effort made at my request in the first place - few of us are completely free of churlishness, truculence, or selective criticism of others. (just ask my wife)
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Old 23rd September 2013, 08:33 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
what I'd more strenuously disagree with is your supposition that the enclosure size and type is irrelevant. Under test condiditons, to certain portions of bandwidth with swept signals - perhaps - but with dynamic wide bandwidth music, I think perhaps not.
Well, yes, I'd never disagree with that. For the measurements taken, the box isn't involved. For listening or bass measurements, the box is incredibly important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post

as for continuing your conversation with Clark - careful what you wish for

All I ask is he explain in a meaningful way why the box I selected for the Alpair makes my testing unfair for the alpair. I see plenty of similar sized and shaped boxes on his website for similar drivers, so what gives? If he can demonstrate there's a problem, I'll either correct it, or scrap the results. It's quite simple really. Not sure why he needs to drag Dave through the mud to (not) make his point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
and yes, I should have started off with a thanx for the effort made at my request in the first place - few of us are completely free of churlishness, truculence, or selective criticism of others. (just ask my wife)
Oh no problem. I don't expect stuff like this to gain me fame or something. And I appreciate (probably doesn't seem like it right now) the conversation we're having about the results. At least you've engaged me in a meaningful way.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 08:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
It is possible to get FE83eN to go that low, but the BR tuning is not something i would ever consider using -- i could not derive a vented alignment i would use. And with even 1w in this sim excursion limits are exceeded all the way up to 300 Hz. It looks best in a sealed box, which reaches as deep as i claim.

dave
Guys,

Armchair critic!?! I am not the person who is posting data in several places on the internet without having ever actually heard or measured the performance of the drivers I am discussing. Especially not the driver of a competing company.

But hey - I just needed to get this off my chest. Something that I see is an injustice and I am assertively pointing it out. And whether you agree with me or not, thank you for looking at those links and judging for yourself.

As I mentioned, I've owned, enjoyed, measured, and evaluated both the FF85Wk, and Alpair 6p used in your study - in multiple different well made enclosures from my own shop. designs were arrived at by simulation (Win ISD). Then I broke each model in several hundred hours, and took meansurements as well. But unfortunately, I didn't save them. I'm sorry, but small business moves fast and sometimes there just isn't always time to communicate every little detail of my RnD to the world.

But from memory the graphs do mostly line up with what is here in your study (which is why I didn't CONDEMN your study, just provide guidance for how to get more accurate measurements. The conclusion of your study is that the FF85K was closer to the advertised (supposedly ideal) measurements rather than the Alpair 6p that had a pretty weird trough in its graph.

I personally think that the Alpair 6p could be done better justice than this. Is it my favorite driver, no. but for some people, it's a great choice. I want people to buy this driver. I want alot of people, all across the world to enjoy all ilk, all manner of HiFi for that matter!

I have the mentality of the way the microbrew community is. "Go buy beer!"

Now. on to the reputation of the 83En. Yes, it does have a rise at 2k and it is somewhat noticable. However, it can mostly be dealt with by natural baffle shape/size and a very fine build quality. Other than that slight anomoly, it has very even, pleasant, and even what could be considered a "powerful" response for this size of a driver.

For a driver whose anomoly can be dealt with so easily via some simple, yet admittably patiently realized design elements, then the same is true probably true (based on your and my and others' evaluations) of the Alpair 6p. I don't even make a speaker commercially for the Alpair 6p. My competitor does. And!!! I really like Mark's work and I think people should partake!!!! He's a brilliant designer. So is Dave. Mostly

The FE83En is also great for DIYing. I just got done teaching a speakerbuilding class at MAKERHAUS consisting of 9 people. The students DIYed enclosures for the FE83En and the FE103En in a real woodshop. I am very "pro-effort" in DIY and scientific efforts. So I upheld the students to the same design rigor that my own designs go through. Sim, make, measure, sim, make measure...rinse and repeat. It isn't a secret. its the same kind of work that everybody else in this industry does...no one is all that special in this respect, me included.

And yes. My personal favorite drivers' reputation should be cleared on this forum from its current state of being the red headed step child or something.

----I can only trust that other people on this forum aren't blind to the discrepancies in what's been said and implied on "the internet" from the truth about these drivers.---

The fact of the matter is that thousands of people across the world enjoy the FE83En, just like they enjoy the FF85WK, and soon, hopefully, the newer Alpair 6p.

What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

Best,

Clark
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Last edited by blumenco; 23rd September 2013 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 08:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by blumenco View Post
Guys,

Armchair critic!?! I am not the person who is posting data in several places on the internet without having ever actually heard or measured the performance of the drivers I am discussing. Especially not the driver of a competing company.

But hey - I just needed to get this off my chest. And I thank you for listening.
I'm pretty sure Dave has heard the FE83. Still not relevant to your assertions here, but fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post
Guys,

The conclusion of your study is that the FF85K was closer to the advertised (supposedly ideal) measurements rather than the Alpair 6p that had a pretty weird trough in its graph.
Wow, you did mis the point That wasn't the conclusion at all. The conclusion is they both measure great. A side thought was "hey, look how great the fostex lines up with the spec sheet".

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post

I personally think that the Alpair 6p could be done better justice than this.
Fair enough. I'm still unsure why you feel this way. But fine. We'll agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumenco View Post

Now. on to the reputation of the 83En. Yes, it does have a rise at 2k and it is somewhat noticable. However, it can mostly be dealt with by natural baffle shape/size and a very fine build quality. Other than that slight anomoly, it has very even, pleasant, and even what could be considered a "powerful" response for this size of a driver.

For a driver whose anomoly can be dealt with so easily via some simple, yet admittably patiently realized design elements, then the same is true probably true (based on your and my and others' evaluations) of the Alpair 6p. I don't even make a speaker commercially for the Alpair 6p. My competitor does. And!!! I really like Mark's work and I think people should partake!!!! He's a brilliant designer. So is Dave. Mostly

The FE83En is also great for DIYing. I just got done teaching a speakerbuilding class at MAKERHAUS consisting of 9 people. The students DIYed enclosures for the FE83En and the FE103En in a real woodshop. I am very "pro-effort" in DIY and scientific efforts. So I upheld the students to the same design rigor that my own designs go through. Sim, make, measure, sim, make measure...rinse and repeat. It isn't a secret. its the same kind of work that everybody else in this industry does...no one is all that special in this respect, me included.

And yes. My personal favorite drivers' reputation should be cleared on this forum from its current state of being the red headed step child or something.

----I can only trust that other people on this forum aren't blind to the discrepancies in what's been said and implied on "the internet" from the truth about these drivers.---

That thousands of people across the world enjoy the FE83En, just like they enjoy these other driver models being discussed on this thread!

What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

Best,

Clark
I'm unsure why you're so hung up on the FE83? It's not part of this test. And from the testing I've personally done of it, I will NOT "clear its reputation". Feel free to keep enjoying it though. We agree on something, just partake!

None of this has anything to do with giving the alpair a bad shake here though. I own the alpairs. The fostex are on loan. I have no reason to lift one up and slam the other down...
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