With threads like this one showing up I wish more people would start looking at processing like we described here.
No way I'd want to go mono. Even though I think I understand the motives.
Clearing up room reflections originally was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Until I found a way to get past that.
Yes it had great imaging. but tonally it let me down a bit. The Fixing the Stereo phantom center thread came at a very good time for me. I was already venturing into mid/side tricks at that time. That all started with the JRiver effect: "Surround Field" and me wanting to know what it did exactly.
I hope we get more takers to start experimenting with this. I've had a long morning listening session and would wish to be able to share this experience.
I hope it's of some inspiration to a few of you (or many
)
Even if this wasn't of benefit to you guys, writing about it always inspires me to take another look at what I have. Which means I clean up a few details here and there and low and behold, I enjoy it even more.
Some time ago I confessed I did not properly back up my settings and had a crash. I've run daily backups ever since. The lost settings I had? I think I've managed to be at, or above that level again (now properly saved).
Next thing on the to-do list is create a new Home Theatre setup from these current settings. Hope to start with it this afternoon and tonight enjoy it with a movie with my son this evening on our men only night.
No way I'd want to go mono. Even though I think I understand the motives.
Clearing up room reflections originally was a bit of a mixed bag for me. Until I found a way to get past that.
Yes it had great imaging. but tonally it let me down a bit. The Fixing the Stereo phantom center thread came at a very good time for me. I was already venturing into mid/side tricks at that time. That all started with the JRiver effect: "Surround Field" and me wanting to know what it did exactly.
I hope we get more takers to start experimenting with this. I've had a long morning listening session and would wish to be able to share this experience.
I hope it's of some inspiration to a few of you (or many
)Even if this wasn't of benefit to you guys, writing about it always inspires me to take another look at what I have. Which means I clean up a few details here and there and low and behold, I enjoy it even more.
Some time ago I confessed I did not properly back up my settings and had a crash. I've run daily backups ever since. The lost settings I had? I think I've managed to be at, or above that level again (now properly saved).
Next thing on the to-do list is create a new Home Theatre setup from these current settings. Hope to start with it this afternoon and tonight enjoy it with a movie with my son this evening on our men only night.
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There were some things that bugged me about the schematics posted of my processing. After going over it one more time I have fixed some errors that actually do matter if someone wants to try it. Here is a revised schematic...
What was fixed, you may wonder...
- in the main line there was (Main) EQ placed in front of mid/side action for those channels, not a good idea. If the EQ is different between the left and right channel it will upset the mid/side balance within the original recording.
Any (main or other) EQ should take place after the mid/side EQ.
I made it represent my setup, as I do show 6 channels (for a reason). Wiring it in 6 channels can give you a virtual way to check each branch within the processing. Just feed it with it's recorded IR.
As we can feed it with a (+L and +R) representing the phantom material, with either (+L 0R) or (0L +R) to represent a signal panned to the corresponding left or right side, and last with (+L -R) to check out of phase balance.
* 0L or 0R represent a stereo channel without a signal on that side.
I replaced the fixed attenuation on the center part within the ambient channels as it would or could be a variable to play with.
If I see any more problems I'll report. This does not show my complete EQ scheme as it leaves out any FIR correction. For the mains this step should be either before or after the [main EQ], for the 4 ambient channels it would be placed after the attenuation steps. Where the (CL), and (LS) get the left side ambient FIR correction and (CR) and (RS) would get the right side ambient FIR correction.
Lots can be done to review each step with a virtual measurement saved to disk. Very useful to pick up errors in the process. It's very easy to overlook some steps here.
What was fixed, you may wonder...
- in the main line there was (Main) EQ placed in front of mid/side action for those channels, not a good idea. If the EQ is different between the left and right channel it will upset the mid/side balance within the original recording.
Any (main or other) EQ should take place after the mid/side EQ.
I made it represent my setup, as I do show 6 channels (for a reason). Wiring it in 6 channels can give you a virtual way to check each branch within the processing. Just feed it with it's recorded IR.
As we can feed it with a (+L and +R) representing the phantom material, with either (+L 0R) or (0L +R) to represent a signal panned to the corresponding left or right side, and last with (+L -R) to check out of phase balance.
* 0L or 0R represent a stereo channel without a signal on that side.
I replaced the fixed attenuation on the center part within the ambient channels as it would or could be a variable to play with.
If I see any more problems I'll report. This does not show my complete EQ scheme as it leaves out any FIR correction. For the mains this step should be either before or after the [main EQ], for the 4 ambient channels it would be placed after the attenuation steps. Where the (CL), and (LS) get the left side ambient FIR correction and (CR) and (RS) would get the right side ambient FIR correction.
Lots can be done to review each step with a virtual measurement saved to disk. Very useful to pick up errors in the process. It's very easy to overlook some steps here.
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Would it help anyone if I were to edit the above schematic to reflect my complete setup? Just asking as it would be more work. In the above schematic I still tried to omit the specific needs I had and tried to keep it all "basic" or "universal".
Tell me if there is an interest and I'll see what I can do. I could link the schematics to each JRiver/plugin step for clarity.
Tell me if there is an interest and I'll see what I can do. I could link the schematics to each JRiver/plugin step for clarity.
Please do, Pano.. that will help. It is time consuming to do it with a bitmap editor .
@gassit, I will try to show it all, and relate it to examples of what I use in JRiver and where. Meanwhile I've already changed some parts of it out of curiosity. I'm not able to really put it to the test. Let's just call it experiment # 400 or something like that.
From the fist day of Christmas until 24:00 on new years eve we have a thing called TOP 2000 in the Netherlands, the best songs of all time according to all of our Dutch occupants that took the time to vote. This means the arrays blast music(*) all day long, bad streaming music from the Interwebs. To entertain my family and me.
It is fun at times, but I have to admit... a lot of "bad" songs too. It is at these times I'm glad to have my own opinion, of what I like and dislike. I do realise that also makes me an arrogant bastard at times. If I am, just correct me.
(*) I use an Internet radio channel as source. Compressed to #$$# and certainly not representative of the real songs as recorded. As I type this: Kashmir from Led Zeppelin is blasting! Good times! (only starring at # 251, people, where is your taste in music!) For those interested: NPO Radio 2 luisteren live | Nederlandseradio.nl
.@gassit, I will try to show it all, and relate it to examples of what I use in JRiver and where. Meanwhile I've already changed some parts of it out of curiosity. I'm not able to really put it to the test. Let's just call it experiment # 400 or something like that
.From the fist day of Christmas until 24:00 on new years eve we have a thing called TOP 2000 in the Netherlands, the best songs of all time according to all of our Dutch occupants that took the time to vote. This means the arrays blast music(*) all day long, bad streaming music from the Interwebs. To entertain my family and me.
It is fun at times, but I have to admit... a lot of "bad" songs too. It is at these times I'm glad to have my own opinion, of what I like and dislike. I do realise that also makes me an arrogant bastard at times. If I am, just correct me
.(*) I use an Internet radio channel as source. Compressed to #$$# and certainly not representative of the real songs as recorded. As I type this: Kashmir from Led Zeppelin is blasting! Good times! (only starring at # 251, people, where is your taste in music!) For those interested: NPO Radio 2 luisteren live | Nederlandseradio.nl
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As said earlier, I have experimentally changed my ambient channels, once again.
No idea where this will lead to, as again perception is different. But is it better?
What have I done? I put the left and right ambient speaker out of phase from each other. As I am mixing in some summed content (representing the phantom material)
this still has left/right channel separation. However the phantom material will be out of phase, arriving from the lateral angles.
So far it's been fun to listen to. Still not sure if I'll keep it this way though. Time will tell.
Listening to ambient channels by themselves does give a distant feel to it. Different than having them both in phase. I may have to do some timing tweaks, as the phantom center perceived did move a bit. Already accounted for that drifting with some SPL tweaks but some timing difference might help too.
I'll go into listening mode again, playing random tracks.
No idea where this will lead to, as again perception is different. But is it better?
What have I done? I put the left and right ambient speaker out of phase from each other. As I am mixing in some summed content (representing the phantom material)
this still has left/right channel separation. However the phantom material will be out of phase, arriving from the lateral angles.
So far it's been fun to listen to. Still not sure if I'll keep it this way though. Time will tell.
Listening to ambient channels by themselves does give a distant feel to it. Different than having them both in phase. I may have to do some timing tweaks, as the phantom center perceived did move a bit. Already accounted for that drifting with some SPL tweaks but some timing difference might help too.
I'll go into listening mode again, playing random tracks.
To be honest, I'll need time.
The ambient has always been a rather out of phase mix, as it consists of (L-R) and (R-L). The biggest change is the phantom part in this setup. It is timed rather late so it won't eat away bass from the mains. If anything, it "could" influence front to back balance a bit more. Not by SPL but out of phase phantom material will be in phase from behind and vice versa.
I remembered Lycan (werewolf on DIYaudio) mention it as an option for the ambient channels from reading it way back when on diymobileaudio. I had tried it very early on, but this was without adding/mixing in phantom material.
The ambient has always been a rather out of phase mix, as it consists of (L-R) and (R-L). The biggest change is the phantom part in this setup. It is timed rather late so it won't eat away bass from the mains. If anything, it "could" influence front to back balance a bit more. Not by SPL but out of phase phantom material will be in phase from behind and vice versa.
I remembered Lycan (werewolf on DIYaudio) mention it as an option for the ambient channels from reading it way back when on diymobileaudio. I had tried it very early on, but this was without adding/mixing in phantom material.
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The experiment was short lived. I just had to conclude the former setup did way better. After changing it back I couldn't stop listening...
Even if something somehow "gets" you the first time, it may not withstand the test of time.
It turns out my shift in phantom center wasn't due to the ambient setup. After turning off the ambient channels it was still there. Even when I tried older corrections, they all showed the same deviation. I have not found the reason, it doesn't seem to come from any settings on the PC. Stuff like that really is no fun. What else is there, the DAC, the amplifier and the speakers... I first noticed that shift during the Top 2000 listening, my girlfriend was sitting next to me so I thought, that must be it. I did find it strange that it didn't happen like this before with multiple people listening.
Is my amp playing tricks on me?
Even if something somehow "gets" you the first time, it may not withstand the test of time.
It turns out my shift in phantom center wasn't due to the ambient setup. After turning off the ambient channels it was still there. Even when I tried older corrections, they all showed the same deviation. I have not found the reason, it doesn't seem to come from any settings on the PC. Stuff like that really is no fun. What else is there, the DAC, the amplifier and the speakers... I first noticed that shift during the Top 2000 listening, my girlfriend was sitting next to me so I thought, that must be it. I did find it strange that it didn't happen like this before with multiple people listening.
Is my amp playing tricks on me?