Hope not to bore you all, but I was interested to see the differences between simulated results of the array vs real world in-room results.
Here's a small gif showing what I mean:
Even though the color/resolution suffers somewhat from making it into a small gif, I find the results quite remarkable
.
Especially when you consider it's a relatively normal living room where I recorded the real world results.
The horn shape is recognizable, the rest obviously is other room related stuff like walls and furniture.
Here's a small gif showing what I mean:
Even though the color/resolution suffers somewhat from making it into a small gif, I find the results quite remarkable
.Especially when you consider it's a relatively normal living room where I recorded the real world results.
The horn shape is recognizable, the rest obviously is other room related stuff like walls and furniture.
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From what you describe it still sounds far from terrible. From all I read having these beautiful graphs is not trivial regards real measurements and it IS important to get your directivity right. AND I respect you that you use eq to get the desired resut for YOUR EARS. that's what's important in the end. Hell yeah, I have certain eq settings saved for different music, f.ex. I have a somewhat "bathtube" eq with a lot of bass boost saved for one of the most amazing live video recordings I have ever heard/seen: Supertramp live at pavillion de Paris @1979 (my year of birth)
unfortunatately there was a complete video with no cuts and AFAIC better video quality which seems since to been have taken down
but we're talking about the sound, so maybe go and enjoy it (with a sprinkle of eq if you so desire!)
PS: sound allone seems to be readily available even on deezer!
EDIT: by "a lot of bass boost" I mean something as modest as 3.5dB. YMMV.
unfortunatately there was a complete video with no cuts and AFAIC better video quality which seems since to been have taken down
but we're talking about the sound, so maybe go and enjoy it (with a sprinkle of eq if you so desire!)
PS: sound allone seems to be readily available even on deezer!
EDIT: by "a lot of bass boost" I mean something as modest as 3.5dB. YMMV.
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Added the above story to my speaker website here: https://www.vandermill-audio.nl/?p=1485
Still going on and on, no stopping me .
I've said I use VituixCAD to see what floor and ceiling effects I could expect. Firstly, VituixCAD has floor and ceiling effects build in, so once you design your speaker, just turn on the desired room effects and you'll get a prediction of the in-room frequency curve(s). I was looking for something more, an IR that I could compare to my in-room measurements. As I did have enough of those. @nc535 did lead the way and got Kimmo to expand the VituixCAD program so we could model the floor and ceiling reflections. So what did we model to be able to view that IR?
Pictured, it looks somewhat like this:
(man made, no AI was used in the making of this picture)
Pretend those yellow planes are the actual floor and ceiling within the room. We modeled the arrays like usual and put mirror images of the array above the ceiling and beneath the floor. Using the respective ceiling and floor as the mirror. One day I may try the same for back and side wall results.
That's what's being modeled in this VituixCAD result below:
In this case the reflections are modeled to be 2 dB below the level of the real arrays. I put a second order highpass at 30 Hz to mimic my in-room results. The result in the upper left graph now represents the arrays + their floor and ceiling reflection. Which means that if I export the Impulse response "Total SPL", these reflections are now included. The FR graph looks exactly the same as the one that VituixCAD models, except that one is just a frequency response, not able to be saved as an IR.
That IR (total SPL) is what resulted in that animated gif (versus the in-room measured result):
.I've said I use VituixCAD to see what floor and ceiling effects I could expect. Firstly, VituixCAD has floor and ceiling effects build in, so once you design your speaker, just turn on the desired room effects and you'll get a prediction of the in-room frequency curve(s). I was looking for something more, an IR that I could compare to my in-room measurements. As I did have enough of those. @nc535 did lead the way and got Kimmo to expand the VituixCAD program so we could model the floor and ceiling reflections. So what did we model to be able to view that IR?
Pictured, it looks somewhat like this:
(man made, no AI was used in the making of this picture
)Pretend those yellow planes are the actual floor and ceiling within the room. We modeled the arrays like usual and put mirror images of the array above the ceiling and beneath the floor. Using the respective ceiling and floor as the mirror. One day I may try the same for back and side wall results.
That's what's being modeled in this VituixCAD result below:
In this case the reflections are modeled to be 2 dB below the level of the real arrays. I put a second order highpass at 30 Hz to mimic my in-room results. The result in the upper left graph now represents the arrays + their floor and ceiling reflection. Which means that if I export the Impulse response "Total SPL", these reflections are now included. The FR graph looks exactly the same as the one that VituixCAD models, except that one is just a frequency response, not able to be saved as an IR.
That IR (total SPL) is what resulted in that animated gif (versus the in-room measured result):
Yes, as measured in my room, with both arrays + subs playing. Not really unbelievable, just some planning and a lot of trial and error .
As described here and here it's all in the combination of the speakers plus the room all working together. Took me long enough to find out what worked for me. But it has been, and still is, a rewarding journey.
.As described here and here it's all in the combination of the speakers plus the room all working together. Took me long enough to find out what worked for me. But it has been, and still is, a rewarding journey.
One thing that cleaned up the IR is the ETC differences between unshaded and shaded arrays:
(the room changed quite a bit too, between these two plots, as well as the drivers used in the array)
This difference can also be seen in the APL_TDA plots, first the unshaded array:
Compared to the frequency shaded array set at the same time frame:
Fun to see I had a lower cut-off frequency with the unshaded arrays running fullrange. (didn't have subwoofers back then)
(the room changed quite a bit too, between these two plots, as well as the drivers used in the array)
This difference can also be seen in the APL_TDA plots, first the unshaded array:
Compared to the frequency shaded array set at the same time frame:
Fun to see I had a lower cut-off frequency with the unshaded arrays running fullrange. (didn't have subwoofers back then)
Had some fun yesterday. Had my mom over for dinner. I had promised her she could listen to the stereo on het next visit, as my son had told her how much he loved listening to it. He told her he bought "Into The Electric Castle" on vinyl and had to admit it even sounds better on the arrays (playing from a digital source .
So while my girl and I were preparing dinner, my son was in charge over the stereo and together with his grandmother the both of them listened to music. They played the entire "Into The Electric Castle" album and after dinner some more "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb" and other tracks. Not skimping on volume either.
My mom is 86 years old, but she has always been wired a bit different. She even went to a Whitesnake concert with me when she was 76, and I took her to see a Dilana Smith show when she was 80. She met Dilana at an "in store" event in our local record shop and Dilana insisted I took her to her concert. At the concert Dilana addressed her and said: "Froukje is the coolest 80 year old chick I've ever met!"
Proof, taken at the "in-store" event:
.So while my girl and I were preparing dinner, my son was in charge over the stereo and together with his grandmother the both of them listened to music. They played the entire "Into The Electric Castle" album and after dinner some more "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb" and other tracks. Not skimping on volume either.
My mom is 86 years old, but she has always been wired a bit different
. She even went to a Whitesnake concert with me when she was 76, and I took her to see a Dilana Smith show when she was 80. She met Dilana at an "in store" event in our local record shop and Dilana insisted I took her to her concert. At the concert Dilana addressed her and said: "Froukje is the coolest 80 year old chick I've ever met!"Proof, taken at the "in-store" event:
Thanks for looking! Why do you think I create these visuals
. I'm wired like that too! Updated the comparison of sim vs reality as i didn't like the picture I created for that.
i may type many words in this thread but I'm actually quite visually oriented.
I do know Sass! From "I'm a Believer" in the 80's to her later work, she still tours and I go see her from time to time.
My favorite album being "Rats", with "High Road Easy" as her radio hit song at the time over here.
(I do remember Steven Tyler saying about her she had bigger balls than most men he knew (lol))
My favorite album being "Rats", with "High Road Easy" as her radio hit song at the time over here.
(I do remember Steven Tyler saying about her she had bigger balls than most men he knew (lol))
Animating the change going from unshaded arrays with TC9 (without subwoofer support in our room pré renovation) to the current shaded arrays using the 10F (with subwoofer support in our freshly renovated room):
A change starting in Februari 2016 and moving towards Februari 2024
A lot of little things have changed in this period. Overall the changes have had the most effect on the vertical directivity, and that does show as a reduction of in-room energy in the top end of this graph (4K and up).
Horizontal directivity has remained the same, the changes in our room being responsible for the largest difference here.
The added subwoofers did clean up the in-room result of the bass below ~200 Hz. The shared load there further reduced the influence of room effects.
A change starting in Februari 2016 and moving towards Februari 2024
A lot of little things have changed in this period. Overall the changes have had the most effect on the vertical directivity, and that does show as a reduction of in-room energy in the top end of this graph (4K and up).
Horizontal directivity has remained the same, the changes in our room being responsible for the largest difference here.
The added subwoofers did clean up the in-room result of the bass below ~200 Hz. The shared load there further reduced the influence of room effects.
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Glad she made an impression on the other side of the pond too!
Yeah, she can rock!