Hi Jim,
please design a PapasTL for FE206e.
Internal 10".
Height and depth you decide.
Box size is not a problem.
Try to keep fs as close as possible to 39 Hz.
You have MJK 's sheet. Just give the data and calculate
height, depth and throat size keeping internal width to 10".
Will build with 3/4 MDF.
I will take full responsibility if sound bad.
You will only give me basic dimensions.
Please help me.
I am at present listening it in a 42" × 10" × 14" ported box.
It is driven with a 30 watt 6550 pp amp.
But like to experiment as I am also retired and have time at hand.
Soon I will be starting my 300B se amp.
(Its an Andy Grove design and sounds wonderfull.
I have built one with a friend, who has it now.
By the way my 6550 pp is also Andy Grove build of the good old days of the
Audio Note fame).
What ever information given by you people who know to
work with sheets is highly appreciated.
John.(Srian)
'Life becomes exciting when you listeni to the tube sound'.
please design a PapasTL for FE206e.
Internal 10".
Height and depth you decide.
Box size is not a problem.
Try to keep fs as close as possible to 39 Hz.
You have MJK 's sheet. Just give the data and calculate
height, depth and throat size keeping internal width to 10".
Will build with 3/4 MDF.
I will take full responsibility if sound bad.
You will only give me basic dimensions.
Please help me.
I am at present listening it in a 42" × 10" × 14" ported box.
It is driven with a 30 watt 6550 pp amp.
But like to experiment as I am also retired and have time at hand.
Soon I will be starting my 300B se amp.
(Its an Andy Grove design and sounds wonderfull.
I have built one with a friend, who has it now.
By the way my 6550 pp is also Andy Grove build of the good old days of the
Audio Note fame).
What ever information given by you people who know to
work with sheets is highly appreciated.
John.(Srian)
'Life becomes exciting when you listeni to the tube sound'.
Hi John,
I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve with a new cabinet for your FE206e, nor do I have any idea how the current cabinets perform. If what you want is to maximize bass performance, then a BIB is what you want. But if you are hoping for chest thumping bass, then you need a whole different approach, as the FE206e will not do that. I can provide you dimensions for a BIB if you are interested.
If you do not like the idea of a BIB, then perhaps you would like Scottmoose's Half Chang, which was designed for the FE207e, but works very well with the FE206e is you add BSC. I built a pair of these years ago and was very happy with them. For BSC I used 1 mH and 5 ohms, but this depends on room conditions and your preferences. I might be able to find Dave D's old drawings for the Half Chang. Scott also had plans for larger double mouth horns for the FE206e, IIRC.
My PTL was not conceived as a way to extract maximum bass, rather to produce the quality of bass I wanted in my room. Yes, bass performance is highly room dependent!
As for designing a PTL for the FE206e, I really don't want to. It would take me several weeks, and would result in a design which you might or might not want to build--and I doubt anyone else would ever consider it.
Cheers, Jim
I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve with a new cabinet for your FE206e, nor do I have any idea how the current cabinets perform. If what you want is to maximize bass performance, then a BIB is what you want. But if you are hoping for chest thumping bass, then you need a whole different approach, as the FE206e will not do that. I can provide you dimensions for a BIB if you are interested.
If you do not like the idea of a BIB, then perhaps you would like Scottmoose's Half Chang, which was designed for the FE207e, but works very well with the FE206e is you add BSC. I built a pair of these years ago and was very happy with them. For BSC I used 1 mH and 5 ohms, but this depends on room conditions and your preferences. I might be able to find Dave D's old drawings for the Half Chang. Scott also had plans for larger double mouth horns for the FE206e, IIRC.
My PTL was not conceived as a way to extract maximum bass, rather to produce the quality of bass I wanted in my room. Yes, bass performance is highly room dependent!
As for designing a PTL for the FE206e, I really don't want to. It would take me several weeks, and would result in a design which you might or might not want to build--and I doubt anyone else would ever consider it.
Cheers, Jim
Or just email me for the URL. Half-Chang not really recommended for FE206, BSC might make it listenable but will eat up precious excursion.
The FE206 really wants to be in a horn. An optimum BR is 10 litres and barely reaches 100 Hz. Larger might give more lower bass, but will still be thin and have othe issues.
Or as a midTweeter with a helper woofer
dave
A driver like FE206e is screaming to be impedance-matched, either acoustically through a horn, electrically through a high-Z amplifier or a mix thereof.
Try it with 8ohm series in any box simulation software. It can look good in sealed or BR as the Qt is brought up to the more typical mid-0.30ies range.
Try it with 8ohm series in any box simulation software. It can look good in sealed or BR as the Qt is brought up to the more typical mid-0.30ies range.
Hi All,
Thanks for the advice.
FE206e was born with a birth defect. That is the screeming mids.
I have seen people run out of audio set ups because they could not bare the higs.
Some go to the behind because the bass is so unbearable in disco's.
I have chased people out of my listning room with just 10 watts of mids played through the 206.
So you could imagine what the 206 mids can do.
What people do is to insert a bsc or a zobel filter to tame the mids.
I do not agree to that.
I have put a phase plug in front of the vizzer cone to disperse the mids.
We love the 206 even with this birth defect.
Its addictive.
I do not want to cut off this superior quality of the 206.
My intension is to find a bride for the 206.
So the pair can perform in harmony as a couple.
In the correct box 206 will sing and be unbeatable.
Last year I helped a friend to build a Woden design Vulcan horn speakers for his 206.
They were very efficient, very tall double mouth horns.
They play very loud and the mid range shrill was not at all present with these.
I was very dissapointed because the bass was orchestral and did not have the punch I craved somuch.
Now one would say "hey man you can't expect that kind of punch from a 206!!! ".
Wait till I tell you.
I have Sony SS-TL5 transmission line speakers.
They are 42 inch tall towers with 71/2 woofers.
First time I saw them at a friends place when he was watching a movie in his 5.1 setup.
Incresitive me, went close to the speaker to investigate what this alien was.
That dirty bugger knowing that a loud scene was about to come increased the volume.
I was thrown 3 feet back.
That was the only time in my life that I was scared by a speaker!
Now back to 206.
I removed the woofer from the Sony and tried to fit the 206 there.
The hole was too small.
I cut an 18 inch circular board with 71/2 hole and fitted the 206 the other way around over the mouth.
Connected directly bypassing the crossover and played music.
Man it was singing.
Punchy bass, no mid range shrill because the bas was adequate to level out the frequency responce with the mids.
Every thing was fine except for the looks.
The WAF was so terrible I had to dismantle the contraption and make them dissapear even before I could make some measurements of the experiment.
Sad memmories of a very short marriage !
Not me,' but 206!
I would have immediately made the hole bigger in the Sony and fixed the 206, but the cabinets are only 11" wide and 206 cannot go in there.
The idea to make new cabinets wide enough to accomodate the 206 was not attempted because
I was scared it woud upset the internal volume and due to that the performance.
So I will not believe anyone who says, that the 206 cannot rock.
That's why my cry for help to you, to design me a TL when I saw Pappas TL.
Thats why I am shy of horns.
Now you know my story.
We will think up something.
If I get lucky finding a bride for 206, I will invite you for the wedding.
good luck
john.
Thanks for the advice.
FE206e was born with a birth defect. That is the screeming mids.
I have seen people run out of audio set ups because they could not bare the higs.
Some go to the behind because the bass is so unbearable in disco's.
I have chased people out of my listning room with just 10 watts of mids played through the 206.
So you could imagine what the 206 mids can do.
What people do is to insert a bsc or a zobel filter to tame the mids.
I do not agree to that.
I have put a phase plug in front of the vizzer cone to disperse the mids.
We love the 206 even with this birth defect.
Its addictive.
I do not want to cut off this superior quality of the 206.
My intension is to find a bride for the 206.
So the pair can perform in harmony as a couple.
In the correct box 206 will sing and be unbeatable.
Last year I helped a friend to build a Woden design Vulcan horn speakers for his 206.
They were very efficient, very tall double mouth horns.
They play very loud and the mid range shrill was not at all present with these.
I was very dissapointed because the bass was orchestral and did not have the punch I craved somuch.
Now one would say "hey man you can't expect that kind of punch from a 206!!! ".
Wait till I tell you.
I have Sony SS-TL5 transmission line speakers.
They are 42 inch tall towers with 71/2 woofers.
First time I saw them at a friends place when he was watching a movie in his 5.1 setup.
Incresitive me, went close to the speaker to investigate what this alien was.
That dirty bugger knowing that a loud scene was about to come increased the volume.
I was thrown 3 feet back.
That was the only time in my life that I was scared by a speaker!
Now back to 206.
I removed the woofer from the Sony and tried to fit the 206 there.
The hole was too small.
I cut an 18 inch circular board with 71/2 hole and fitted the 206 the other way around over the mouth.
Connected directly bypassing the crossover and played music.
Man it was singing.
Punchy bass, no mid range shrill because the bas was adequate to level out the frequency responce with the mids.
Every thing was fine except for the looks.
The WAF was so terrible I had to dismantle the contraption and make them dissapear even before I could make some measurements of the experiment.
Sad memmories of a very short marriage !
Not me,' but 206!
I would have immediately made the hole bigger in the Sony and fixed the 206, but the cabinets are only 11" wide and 206 cannot go in there.
The idea to make new cabinets wide enough to accomodate the 206 was not attempted because
I was scared it woud upset the internal volume and due to that the performance.
So I will not believe anyone who says, that the 206 cannot rock.
That's why my cry for help to you, to design me a TL when I saw Pappas TL.
Thats why I am shy of horns.
Now you know my story.
We will think up something.
If I get lucky finding a bride for 206, I will invite you for the wedding.
good luck
john.
According to the spec the TL5 has a single 8” on the back TL loaded, and then a 6.5” sealed on the front + mid and tweteer for a 4-way system.
Most of the FExx6 series from Fostex have some scream, which is why they are often modified, sometimes heavily. Vulcan is an example of the kind of box needed to get maximum bass out of these drivers.
dave
Most of the FExx6 series from Fostex have some scream, which is why they are often modified, sometimes heavily. Vulcan is an example of the kind of box needed to get maximum bass out of these drivers.
dave
John,
Was your friend's HT amp driving the F206E when you had them in the Sony cabinet?
Were the other Sony speakers connected to the amplifier when you did the playback experiment? You mentioned your friend has a 5.1 set up. I am assuming you installed your FE206E to one cabinet only?
John,
Since this is a TL, it will have a fold inside (please refer to the link below for an idea - different speaker though):
Sony SS-TL5 on thevintageknob.org
Not sure if you can measure the length of each section, but maybe worth a try. Dave and others can help you along the way.
Since this is a TL, it will have a fold inside (please refer to the link below for an idea - different speaker though):
Sony SS-TL5 on thevintageknob.org
Not sure if you can measure the length of each section, but maybe worth a try. Dave and others can help you along the way.
Hi Everyone,
I have given dim's of Sony SS-TL40 transmissiln line speaker box.
Could anyone please suggest how I could alter these dim's and build a box to accomodate the FE206e driver.
Please let me know the results when these dim's are entered to the TL worksheets.
rgds
john.
I have given dim's of Sony SS-TL40 transmissiln line speaker box.
Could anyone please suggest how I could alter these dim's and build a box to accomodate the FE206e driver.
Please let me know the results when these dim's are entered to the TL worksheets.
rgds
john.
Attachments
John,
The FE206E product sheet shows driver height including magnet is ~3.5", and the cutout is ~7.2".
If you are using 0.75" material and you have 4.5" gap from the internal divider, the driver magnet will be 1.75" from the back. If you use a supra baffle or double layer baffle, then you can put in another 0.75" gap.
With 8" internal baffle width you will be able to do the 7.2" cut-out (not ideal); the driver frame will extend on to the sides a bit.
You have the FE206 or FE206E?
The FE206E product sheet shows driver height including magnet is ~3.5", and the cutout is ~7.2".
If you are using 0.75" material and you have 4.5" gap from the internal divider, the driver magnet will be 1.75" from the back. If you use a supra baffle or double layer baffle, then you can put in another 0.75" gap.
With 8" internal baffle width you will be able to do the 7.2" cut-out (not ideal); the driver frame will extend on to the sides a bit.
You have the FE206 or FE206E?
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Yes, having a bit of space around the drivers is a good idea... specially for wide-band drivers with thin cones; otherwise there is a possibility that reflected sound waves will travel back towards the cone. But in the case of the design you have chosen, there is not much of flexibility - if you make the cabinet wider, it will have to become shallower to maintain cross-section measurements.
The description above is helpful. Now I have some idea of what you are thinking about.
The Woden double mouth horn your friend has should produce as good a response as you are going to get from the FE206e. But if you are looking for chest thumping bass, I think you are doomed to disappointment. According to forum member Bob Brines (and perhaps others, but I don’t recall), that chest thump comes from the 80 to 100 Hz region and requires at least 95 dB SPL. Single full range drivers don’t do that very well.
The Sony cabinets you described (assuming the internal cavity extends from top to bottom) should be some form of MLTL, which I would expect to add an octave of extension to the bass response: approximately 40 to 80 Hz coming from the port. The 80 to 100 Hz where the ‘thump’ is generated should come mostly from the driver directly. The FE206e has an Xmax of 1.5mm, which hardly seems like enough to make the thump. Fostex drivers are quite robust, and I have seen their cones move well beyond Xmax without damage. However, this will result in compression since you are beyond the linear range of the driver. So maybe you can make the 206 thump, but I would expect the sound quality to be compromised. And doing this for very extended periods may cause the voice coil to over heat and fail.
That said, I was curious enough to boot-up my old computer and run a model of the FE206e in a version of the PTL. I guessed the dimensions based on the 206’s Vas and Qts. Either I’m better at this than I think I am, or else I was very lucky. This is pushing the 206 for more extensions than I would normally want to; while Fs is 39 Hz, you can’t tune that low with a driver Qts=0.18. The cabinet is tuned to 56 Hz. I have attached two graphs: the first shows the ‘raw’ SPL curve, while the second shows driver excursion, both are for 1 watt input. In the first graph you can see the response beginning to trail off, then there is a slight bump before F3; if you try to tune lower, this will become progressively worse making one note, boomy bass. When the speaker is placed in a room, there will be boundary re-enforcement which will lift the bass some, with usable response to the mid 40’s. It probably would be a listenable speaker, but it could be better—as in more like one of Scott’s Woden Designs. Yes, most of us here are trying to create what you referred to as ‘orchestral bass’; in other words: no thump.
Cabinet Dimensions: Referring back to my PTL dimensions shown in the drawing: the cabinet is still 10” wide internally. Still 39” tall; internal depth is reduced from 13.75” to 12.75”. The slant board was 6.5” from front, back, and top; now it is 6”. The driver center is 6” from the top (internal). Shorten the bottom board from 25” to something in the range of 21” to 23”—whatever seems good to you. The mouth height remains at 8”, although it could be increased to 9” if you wanted a response curve more like what I have from my PTLs—this would loose a few Hz on the low end, but raise and flatten the curve. The baffle has a 5 degree slope for both appearance and sonic reasons.
That said, I did try playing the Dixie Chicks ‘I Can Love You Better’ (about the only thing I have with a kick drum in the track) on my PTLs with SPL peaks hitting 95 dB (as loud as I can stand) and I don’t get any chest tump. So I really doubt that a PTL cabinet for the 206 will do what you want.
Cheers, Jim
The Woden double mouth horn your friend has should produce as good a response as you are going to get from the FE206e. But if you are looking for chest thumping bass, I think you are doomed to disappointment. According to forum member Bob Brines (and perhaps others, but I don’t recall), that chest thump comes from the 80 to 100 Hz region and requires at least 95 dB SPL. Single full range drivers don’t do that very well.
The Sony cabinets you described (assuming the internal cavity extends from top to bottom) should be some form of MLTL, which I would expect to add an octave of extension to the bass response: approximately 40 to 80 Hz coming from the port. The 80 to 100 Hz where the ‘thump’ is generated should come mostly from the driver directly. The FE206e has an Xmax of 1.5mm, which hardly seems like enough to make the thump. Fostex drivers are quite robust, and I have seen their cones move well beyond Xmax without damage. However, this will result in compression since you are beyond the linear range of the driver. So maybe you can make the 206 thump, but I would expect the sound quality to be compromised. And doing this for very extended periods may cause the voice coil to over heat and fail.
That said, I was curious enough to boot-up my old computer and run a model of the FE206e in a version of the PTL. I guessed the dimensions based on the 206’s Vas and Qts. Either I’m better at this than I think I am, or else I was very lucky. This is pushing the 206 for more extensions than I would normally want to; while Fs is 39 Hz, you can’t tune that low with a driver Qts=0.18. The cabinet is tuned to 56 Hz. I have attached two graphs: the first shows the ‘raw’ SPL curve, while the second shows driver excursion, both are for 1 watt input. In the first graph you can see the response beginning to trail off, then there is a slight bump before F3; if you try to tune lower, this will become progressively worse making one note, boomy bass. When the speaker is placed in a room, there will be boundary re-enforcement which will lift the bass some, with usable response to the mid 40’s. It probably would be a listenable speaker, but it could be better—as in more like one of Scott’s Woden Designs. Yes, most of us here are trying to create what you referred to as ‘orchestral bass’; in other words: no thump.
Cabinet Dimensions: Referring back to my PTL dimensions shown in the drawing: the cabinet is still 10” wide internally. Still 39” tall; internal depth is reduced from 13.75” to 12.75”. The slant board was 6.5” from front, back, and top; now it is 6”. The driver center is 6” from the top (internal). Shorten the bottom board from 25” to something in the range of 21” to 23”—whatever seems good to you. The mouth height remains at 8”, although it could be increased to 9” if you wanted a response curve more like what I have from my PTLs—this would loose a few Hz on the low end, but raise and flatten the curve. The baffle has a 5 degree slope for both appearance and sonic reasons.
That said, I did try playing the Dixie Chicks ‘I Can Love You Better’ (about the only thing I have with a kick drum in the track) on my PTLs with SPL peaks hitting 95 dB (as loud as I can stand) and I don’t get any chest tump. So I really doubt that a PTL cabinet for the 206 will do what you want.
Cheers, Jim
Attachments
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