8"woof with 3" xo---is this a tree i should not be barking up?

osd1 · 2013-08-08 5:14 pm

hey now

i started a new thread based on an idea i got from a member vix on m fostex thread.

a 8" woofer with a 3" or 4" fullranger sealed in its own box.

i've always wanted to try this woofer because i have had great luck with visaton in the past:
Visaton W200S-8 8" Woofer with Treated Paper Cone 8 Ohm 292-572

if i used that woofer in a ported box or small mltl with a properly designed xo going to a fullrange (vix said something like a 1st order 300-400hz) in its own sealed box, would that work? if its a matter of experimenting with a 1st order xo, that i can do. changing a cap to see if something sounds better isnt that big of a deal. but anything more complicated than that is gonna be a pain because as i always say im no audio engineer.

the visaton b80 looks like such a good little 3" fullranger to accompany that particular woofer. plus skys the limit with lots of offerings from fostex, mark audio and many others for a 3" or 4" full ranger

Cal Weldon · 2013-08-08 5:16 pm

Great idea, gaining popularity by the day.

chrisb · 2013-08-08 5:31 pm

check out the Tysen thread of a few years back (Fostex FF85K & CSS SDX7) but the same architecture could apply to a wide range of candidates.

active bi-amping can simplify things considerably, and with the wide availability of media players with reasonable XO functions, particularly easy with computer based music systems

osd1 · 2013-08-08 5:40 pm

chrisb said:
check out the Tysen thread of a few years back (Fostex FF85K & CSS SDX7) but the same architecture could apply to a wide range of candidates.

active bi-amping can simplify things considerably, and with the wide availability of media players with reasonable XO functions, particularly easy with computer based music systems

im trying to stay away from computers. id get a behringer dcx2496 for an active xo

Vix · 2013-08-08 5:49 pm

Hi! The idea is not mine, all credit goes to Dave (planet 10). Search for F.A.S.T. on this forum, you will find some good examples. So, I proposed that because I tried something similar and was pleasantly surprised. Some years ago I had built ML TL with Fostex Fe206e. Not bad, but had to apply a lot of EQ, also the top end of 206 never really pleased me. ML-TL have the advantage of low footprint (can be skinny and tall, but not too tall) and can go quite low. While it is not an optimal box for 206 you could find the right woofer for it. On the other hand , lately I have become to like the mid and top of some 3-4" fullragers, (oh,but they don't do any bass). Then, I stumbled upon Dave's idea of FAST and...click! It works, but you have to find the right combination. Perhaps others will give you better info, but I'd say that it's the way to go

osd1 · 2013-08-08 6:33 pm

Vix said:
Hi! The idea is not mine, all credit goes to Dave (planet 10). Search for F.A.S.T. on this forum, you will find some good examples. So, I proposed that because I tried something similar and was pleasantly surprised. Some years ago I had built ML TL with Fostex Fe206e. Not bad, but had to apply a lot of EQ, also the top end of 206 never really pleased me. ML-TL have the advantage of low footprint (can be skinny and tall, but not too tall) and can go quite low. While it is not an optimal box for 206 you could find the right woofer for it. On the other hand , lately I have become to like the mid and top of some 3-4" fullragers, (oh,but they don't do any bass). Then, I stumbled upon Dave's idea of FAST and...click! It works, but you have to find the right combination. Perhaps others will give you better info, but I'd say that it's the way to go

tried doing a search, couldnt find anything

planet10 · 2013-08-08 7:08 pm

DCX2496 needs lots of work on the analog sections before being usable in any hifi a human wants to listen to. Excellent flexinility filter-wise thou. We try to sticj to simple PLLXOs or 1st order series (latter more expensive and harder to get right).

FAST is not my idea, but we have been promoting the idea as it is an excellent one.

At the upcoming diyFEST we will have 3 new FASTs. An MTM standmount with FF85 and Silver Flute W14, FF85 with 4 Peerless 830870, and Alpair 7.3 with 2 SDX7. + 2 miniOnken with woofTs that have been around for awhile.

tried doing a search, couldnt find anything

chrisb · 2013-08-08 7:56 pm

osd1 said:
im trying to stay away from computers. id get a behringer dcx2496 for an active xo

Well, the DSP processor inside that box is a computer of sorts, and frankly not the best sounding example of this class, but that's another pizzing contest

If you don't need all the flexibility of such a device, then a very cheap and simple passive line level XO can work like a charm. Their disadvantages are lack of adjustability on the fly, need to include the input impedance of amplifiers driving each speaker in the calculus, and no flashing lights or other bells and whistles.

osd1 · 2013-08-08 8:02 pm

chrisb said:
Well, the DSP processor inside that box is a computer of sorts, and frankly not the best sounding example of this class, but that's another pizzing contest

If you don't need all the flexibility of such a device, then a very cheap and simple passive line level XO can work like a charm. Their disadvantages are lack of adjustability on the fly, need to include the input impedance of amplifiers driving each speaker in the calculus, and no flashing lights or other bells and whistles.

i think im just gonna make the tysen's. unless i can find another kit thats around the same size.

planet10 · 2013-08-08 8:07 pm

osd1 said:
i think im just gonna make the tysen's. unless i can find another kit thats around the same size.

Neither of the drivers in Tysen are readily available. The newer FF85 is, we feel, an upgrade, a sub for the SDX7 is harder, but there is lots of choice to pour thru.

dave

osd1 · 2013-08-08 8:21 pm

yeah im about to hit google and see what i can find for proven designs out there i can build.

thanks for your help guys

chrisb · 2013-08-08 8:34 pm

osd1 said:
yeah im about to hit google and see what i can find for proven designs out there i can build.

thanks for your help guys

gee, any from the list in Dave's previous post could be considered "proven" designs - don't be surprised if a thorough Googlization leads you back to the same trail of bread crumbs laid over the past couple of days

but your decision tree should include the standard boilerplate questions about the application for this system:

- room size / placement issues
- constraints on number / dimensions of enclosures
- listening habits - types of program material / SPLs (the first you've more or less covered, but what will average listening levels be)
- available amplifier type & power

tuxedocivic · 2013-08-08 8:48 pm

I did a FE83 and pair of silver flute W17 woofers FAST that was proven with measurements. But it was only ok. The FE83 has an odd resonance. The XO does seen portable to most any 3" full ranger that rolls off around 100hz to 150hz sealed and around 90db. The silver flutes would have to stay put. It was pseudo second order electrical.

Going active with FAST is really simple. I have a pair of tang bands I've done some fasts with using a minidsp. Generally, linkwitz Riley 4th order at 300hz and eq out any crap and you're done. Very easy to get right. And you can use brassier woofer that have more crap above 1000hz in them.

osd1 · 2013-08-09 4:48 am

chrisb said:
gee, any from the list in Dave's previous post could be considered "proven" designs - don't be surprised if a thorough Googlization leads you back to the same trail of bread crumbs laid over the past couple of days

but your decision tree should include the standard boilerplate questions about the application for this system:

- room size / placement issues
- constraints on number / dimensions of enclosures
- listening habits - types of program material / SPLs (the first you've more or less covered, but what will average listening levels be)
- available amplifier type & power

room size ill just take a pic of for you tomorrow. makes stuff easier. i do listen off axis.

constraints on number/dimenson of enclosures: well when i had my audio nirvana super 10's in a 5.6 she freaked out- when i shrunk down to a 2.8 ambiance she was ok with that but still not thrilled. id prefer to keep the woofer box around 3' high, 9.5"-10.5" wide and about 12" at most in depth.

i cant tell you how loud i do listen but i can tell you its not loud. put it this way- variable loudness is a beautiful thing to me. when i had a "spl" program on my ipad (not sure how accurate it was) i was at 77-85db. 85 db was at most. thats why i loved my audio nirvana's when i had them because i can play em low and everything sounded awesome.

as for the amp well heres the thing...right now im running an old aurex power amp/pre amp/tuner. when i do get a new amp, or receiver i dont want to have to make that purchase for a long *** time. right now im lookng at nad 326, yamaha a-s500. if i went receiver (for bass managment purposes) id go with a cambridge azure 351. if i have to biamp well thats a whole 'nother can of worms

Greg B · 2013-08-09 6:03 am

This sort of approach can work very well. As has been pointed out, it is hardly a new idea.

If using a first order crossover, I'd suggest doing it at 500 to 800Hz. This will prevent the 3" from running out of steam when the woofer is barely moving. It's also the likely location of the baffle step, which will save you a few db.

Others prefer to cross over lower to preserve that full range effect. This is a legitimate approach also. Personal preference. But it will require an active or line level passive crossover.

If using a passive crossover, the main thing to be concerned with is the impedance curve. A textbook value cap and coil simply won't work. I prefer to put the mid/hi driver in a short TL, vented out the back. This will smooth the Z enough that a cap highpass will work, but it should still be crossed over a couple octave or more above Fs. A small cabinet tuned to Fs with the port stuffed with polyfill will also work, as will a compensating network.

The woofer will need a zobel.

Or go active.

picowallspeaker · 2013-08-09 6:49 am

...and you, Osd1, don't really need any 'amp camp' incursion ...

A honest 20 W for a 90 dB/W/m (pair of ) speaker is more than enough, if
you're looking for musicality and not brute power.
The thing is correlated with the use of low order crossovers .
The speaker thing is somehow correlated to the 'chain'

:
Since the wf is cheap you can try. No, wait !!!? who wants cheap things?
Die cast basket, copper plug and what else ?

So the speaker thing : make 10 W more than enough for the woofer not
to distort at the lowest frequencies; a 10 W figure is what a fullrange can usually handle, too; going higher in power would bring to use a SDX-7 and a Fostex 85, for example.
I make my designs with the speakers fully suspended, and in my two fast designs for my own

I used series crossover on one and parallel for the other with 2nd order for the mid-tw, as I call it...mmmh
maybe I should name them :cannotbe:

osd1 · 2013-08-09 2:45 pm

picowallspeaker said:
...and you, Osd1, don't really need any 'amp camp' incursion ...
A honest 20 W for a 90 dB/W/m (pair of ) speaker is more than enough, if
you're looking for musicality and not brute power.
The thing is correlated with the use of low order crossovers .
The speaker thing is somehow correlated to the 'chain' :
Since the wf is cheap you can try. No, wait !!!? who wants cheap things?
Die cast basket, copper plug and what else ?
So the speaker thing : make 10 W more than enough for the woofer not
to distort at the lowest frequencies; a 10 W figure is what a fullrange can usually handle, too; going higher in power would bring to use a SDX-7 and a Fostex 85, for example.
I make my designs with the speakers fully suspended, and in my two fast designs for my own I used series crossover on one and parallel for the other with 2nd order for the mid-tw, as I call it...mmmh
maybe I should name them

ive done the whole SET amp thing already. tubes are just not practical for my approach. keep in mind im gonna be using the amp to run my movies and video games as well. its gonna be on 24/7.

the pass amps are just to expensive for me. anything else out there thats commercial/that i can afford (such as the teac stuff) is at 20w.

the reason why i wanna run a bit more power is in case i wanna try different speakers. im not gonna lie, i still have a side of me that wants to try bg planars with scan rev's. i dont wanna be locked into one specific type of speaker design that i can use.

sideways · 2013-08-10 1:30 pm

I've also done one...FF85WK and a SEAS CA22RNX...using a miniDSP as a xover at 250hz...works grand...after a bit of tweaking with the mini

pk2carlos · 2013-08-10 6:15 pm

Here you have a proven design from Visaton. It's not 8" but I think it can't get simpler than that.
Stella light

larryldspkr · 2013-08-13 3:07 am

Are these not multi-way speakers? Trying to use a 3inch with limited power handling, limited max output for anything but a small system in a small room is unrealistic!

Larry

8"woof with 3" xo---is this a tree i should not be barking up?

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