Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FDs

the old Nirvana stamped frame Super 10 sounded good in the Karlsonator 12. Super 10's specs were off with fs near 50 and Qts ~0.41 IIRC- I think the surround dope can dry out pushing fs and Q higher. My nirvana Super8 fs went form low 40's to mid 60's. Eminence's Beta12LTA played pretty well. I tried Beta10cx but did not like the midrange. Beta12cx should work. My favorite Eminence coax are the strong motor models with cast frames made for PA monitor duty. Eminence should offer 54 ounce magnet versions of Beta12cx and 12LTA imo.

perhaps X can check the cast frame Super12 going by Michael Chua's measurements to see how it fits the stock Karlsonator12 - its got a big Vas. My Karlsonator12, built to plan tune ~37Hz.


Def_Driver Nirvana Super12 | Michael Chua spec fs=36.49 1mm xmax, Vas=338.93, Qts=0.4
SD=503cm2
fs=36.49Hz
Mms=20.19g
Qms=2.97
Qes=0.46
Re=7.17
BL=8.46
Le=0.2mH
 
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@snake69fast: I am not the expert here but I think you will get better answers if you supply more information. In what kind of room and at what kind of volumes do you want to play them? Do you have a budget? What is your amplifier? Do you intend to run them full range or with the help of a tweeter/waveguide?
 
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Thanks xrk971. On the parts express website this peerless is listed with optimum box being:

Vented Volume1.6 ft.³ Vented F3 38 Hz

How come F3 in the Karlsonator is higher. I thought it usually outperforms bass reflex boxes.

I adjust the box volume and height to get a flat response that is relatively high efficiency. If you want to get 7Hz lower it can be done but overall balance won't be as nice. What is the sensitivity of the same driver in a bass reflex when tuned to F3 of 38Hz? Probably not flat 92dB like the Karlsonator. Probably a -5dB drop due to baffle step around 800Hz so SPL at 100Hz is more like 85db and -3dB from that is 82dB. The 82dB point on the Karlsonator is by the way, at 38Hz.
 
I adjust the box volume and height to get a flat response that is relatively high efficiency. If you want to get 7Hz lower it can be done but overall balance won't be as nice. What is the sensitivity of the same driver in a bass reflex when tuned to F3 of 38Hz? Probably not flat 92dB like the Karlsonator. Probably a -5dB drop due to baffle step around 800Hz so SPL at 100Hz is more like 85db and -3dB from that is 82dB. The 82dB point on the Karlsonator is by the way, at 38Hz.

If I want to go that low what would give a better sound in your opinion. Build it like you simmed and use the headroom to equalize more bass out of it with my miniDSP or adjust the box dimensions?
 
I am close to the final build decision. The 15" boxes are just too big so i will settle for a Karlsonator 12. I don't want dual drivers so I will need to find the most suitable 12" driver I can find locally. The Eminence Kappa sim looks nice but I would love to go just a little deeper.

@xrk971: Could I bother you for one more sim. It looks like the Eminence Delta Pro 12a might dig a little deeper than the Kappa. Thanks!

Def_Driver Delta Pro 12a | Eminence Delta Pro 12a spec fs=51 4.6mm xmax, Vas=81.7, Qts=0.35
SD=532.4cm2
fs=51Hz
Mms=48g
Qms=7.56
Qes=0.37
Re=5.71ohm
BL=15.3Tm
Le=0.84mH
 
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its too bad Eminence has made many pro coax 12" speakers but not directly offered them to the public as a standard model. Their C12CX and Martin 1114 were one version close to the Delta ProA. Xmax was less, an edge-wound coil. With the right crossover they're about as good in nuance as a good 8 fullrange - just different. - 6dB more sensitive say than W8-1772. I used am all-pass LC network on the woofer section which added a bit of delay- that seemed to make things "snap into focus". Someone with knowledge of filters (not mer-lol) and perhaps Xsim could make coherent coax networks.

C12CX used an 80oz slug fs close to 70. 1114 had ~50Hz fs.
toEmnBg.jpg


I have a 109oz magnet 12cx with 4.8mm coil overhang - its not as efficient as 1114 but sounds very nice despite a 4 inch
diameter woofer voice coil. I've only had it in a Karlson 12 and not the Karlsoator.
pXbQoEZ.jpg


the horn Eminence uses is about the same size & looks a lot like the little from horn on EV's ancient but still made "CDP" ("Compound Diffraction Projector")
P-Audio used the same horn on some of their stage monitor 12cx and 15cx
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
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Faital Pro 3fe25

Hi folks.

First of all sorry in advance if my english sucks it's not my first lenguage.

I'm interested in building up a Karlsonator with the 3fe25, mainly because here in my country Vifa and other brands are way too much difficult to find. After reading a couple of posts in this thread i'm still wondering what design of Karlsonator i need for these driver. I know that the recommended scale is 0.40x, but after checking out the build plans posted by BL21DE3 i noticed that they differ in dimensions with the first replies that talk about a 0.40x Karlsonator.

Actually i couldn't find someone that make a Karlsonator with this type of driver. So my question is if the build up plans that i mentioned are the correct ones to go for or not.

Thanks,
Juan.
 
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Hi folks.

First of all sorry in advance if my english sucks it's not my first lenguage.

I'm interested in building up a Karlsonator with the 3fe25, mainly because here in my country Vifa and other brands are way too much difficult to find. After reading a couple of posts in this thread i'm still wondering what design of Karlsonator i need for these driver. I know that the recommended scale is 0.40x, but after checking out the build plans posted by BL21DE3 i noticed that they differ in dimensions with the first replies that talk about a 0.40x Karlsonator.

Actually i couldn't find someone that make a Karlsonator with this type of driver. So my question is if the build up plans that i mentioned are the correct ones to go for or not.

Thanks,
Juan.

Hi Juan,
I built the first Karlsonator 0.40x with the 3FE25. Acually, I removed the existing TC9FD and put the 3FE25 in its place. Instant 5dB boost in sensitivity and nice bass mids and sparkling treble.

The exact scale build within a 5mm is fine -don't worry about being exact. The Karlsonator is pretty forgiving.

My build measurement is linked on Post 1.

Diynewbie2012 also built it and said it sounds great.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...onator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-187.html#post4955871
 
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The xrk971 W5-2143 Karlsonator

I have a pair of TB W5-2143 that I like a lot. I currently got them in a pair of bog standard BR enclosures and was thinking about something new for them. I came a cross Srednivashtar's wonderful dual PA130-8 XKi in the XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass thread and got intrigued by Karlson inspired clones like the Karlsonator and xrk971's XKi.

So I mailed back and forth with xrk971 who helped me a lot to sim single and dual TB W5-2143 in an XKi enclosure before I abandoned the idea of a dual arrangement and started to focus on a Karlsonator with a single W5-2143 instead. It took me a while before I realised that xrk971 already posted the sim results for the W5-2143 in the A Speaker that Kicks Butt in Large Spaces thread.

So I started to play with a couple of drawings based on the figures from xrk971. I also got invaluable feedback from xrk971 that I incorporated into the final result. I was planning to build it before I shared the drawing but it might take some time before I get around to actually built is so I am sharing it right away as requested by xrk971.

A couple of notes. I'm from Europe so I converted all measures into cm, I'm sorry if you still hold on to Imperial ;) The final scaling factors turned out to be; H: 0.5979, W: 0.0370, D: 0.5282 (if you want to check or convert it yourself into inch for example).

Faithfully scaling down the original thickness of the 3/4" panels would result in something like 13/32". Not so practical and it felt a bit too thin to me. I therefore used two different thicknesses of panels in my drawing, 5/8" (16 mm) for most of the enclosure exterior panels and the drivers baffle, and a bit thinner 1/2" (12 mm) for the rest of the interior panels and the aperture (internally to save some volume and just aesthetics for the aperture).

You could of course use 1/2" for all panels, maybe with some critical bracing, the drawing should work anyway, just go with the same internal measures.
 

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EmuMannen,
Thanks for the very nicely done drawing. I think this will be a fantastic combo as the W5-2143 might be perhaps one of the smoothest full range drivers in the 5in range. It's got great upper reach too. The bass enhancement from the Karlsonator cabinet should, eliminate the need for a baffle step compensation so you get a true 89dB speaker.

(I think you may have one zero too many on the width scaling above)
 
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You are right, not only a zero too many but also a missing five. ;) Correct scaling factors:
  • H: 0.5979
  • W: 0.5370
  • D: 0.5282

For the Imperialists here, the dimensions work out to be about 17.75 in tall x 9in wide x 10in deep. A nice looking aspect ratio I think. Should prove to be a very good sounding balanced speaker.

Here is a snapshot of the plans so everyone can see what we are talking about:
619744d1496673553-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-w5-2143-karlsonator-plans.png
 

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Hello X,
I have couple of Wild Burrow Purple speakers
T/S specs in print:

Re 6.6 Ohm, Fs 68.5 Hz, Sd 211.2, Md 10.5g
Bl 5.08, Qms, 4.80, Qes .770, Qts .664, Spl 95db
Vas 48.744L, Mms 7.02g


Fatigue free listening is what I am looking for and since I have small kid, I want box to be smaller.

1) Should I make 0.53x Karlsonator or XKi out of it? [location: living room next to TV on the Fireplace mantle depth 9inch]

2) Is Cornu Spiral possible with this speaker? [location:bedroom or kids playroom. And if 1 does not work may be for living room TV as well]
 
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Wild Burrow is an 8in full range right? That won't work in a 0.53x Karlsonator. Maybe a 0.75x one but I have to run a sim. The Qts is too high for an xKi. The size to too large for a manageable Cornu unless you don't mind a 5ft x 5ft baffle! It would engrave and quantity of back loaded horn bass would blow you away though. Again Qts is a bit high for a BLh but I got TC9 to work pretty well.
 
WBAL Purple special = might work in a Karlsonator 8 - if reasonably bright , a Karlson 12 - I ran a BetsyK in a K12 (1954 Karlsonette) - excursion was so low that I pumped the volume - still almost no cone movement - tinsel leads fell out of their eyelets - BetsyK could have used a helper tweeter when in a K12

from Paul Janda's post

Re 6.6 Ohm, Fs 68.5 Hz, Sd 211.2, Md 10.5g
Bl 5.08, Qms, 4.80, Qes .770, Qts .664, Spl 95db
Vas 48.744L, Mms 7.02g
 
EmuMannen,
Thanks for the very nicely done drawing. I think this will be a fantastic combo as the W5-2143 might be perhaps one of the smoothest full range drivers in the 5in range. It's got great upper reach too. The bass enhancement from the Karlsonator cabinet should, eliminate the need for a baffle step compensation so you get a true 89dB speaker.

(I think you may have one zero too many on the width scaling above)

Any comments on what the Karlson aperture might do to the offaxis response of the w5 2143? According to this french source - Paramètres haut-parleur de THIELE et SMALL, sans filtre ni ampli - you get about minus 15 db @ 8khz / 30degres off axis and there are other (subjective) rumors that it beams allot.
I've seen somewhere on the forum an open baffle midrange + 2 wings forming an K aperture as a way to improve dispersion... might work for those of us interested in a floorstanding enclosure + help for dispersion.