Hi Cal, boy are you correct, I am a stones throw from the Patullo! If I was any closer I'd be sitting on the bridge deck.
I'm just thinking the the MA drivers are better quality and there is more info/plans for them. Couldn't find too much on those TB's I was lookin at.
So with that said, I wonder when the 10.2/3's will arrive... July? Aug.
Hurry up and wait....
Current shipment of various Alpair drivers on their way to Madisound as we speak (taking the scenic Pacific Ocean tour). With all the chatter and interest in the latest revisions, if you're seriously interested in any of the models, I'd suggest you consider pre-ordering a pair - they'll not likely sit on the shelf for long.
If by the "good stuff" you mean "Apple or "EuroPly" - i.e. 4x8 sheets with solid (un-patched) face veneers, try the trade distributors listed below - they may be willing to sell direct to consumers at "retail" - IIWII
Since I work in the commercial woodworking industry, I have the great advantage of access to almost any available material, although on some types of low demand products minimum factory orders are still required.
E Roko Distribution (Lake City Way, Burnaby) - Murphy Multi-ply (Item code GMAP-750MP-MPLY) ,
P J White Hardwoods (East Kent Ave, Vancouver) Columbia EuroPly (product number P45657116565480)
finally,
Reimer Hardwoods (Peardonville Rd, Abbotsford) - States Appleply (this one I've not used, so don't have the code )
These are all nominal 3/4" (18mm) , void free, higher ply count than the Russian Baltic Birch for the same thickness, whole piece or slip-matched Maple face veneers. Both Murphy and Columbia also fabricate the same product type in 12mm & 15mm, but local distributors only stock based on trade demand, which for this particular material is generally the 12 & 18mm. I had to factory order 30 sheets of the 15mm.
They are far superior to the Russian 5x5 BB in every respect, and you'll pay for it . Of course when calculating your cut plan and material costs, don't forget that a 4x8 sheet is approx 28% more sq ft than 5x5, and OTOH some patterns simply yield better from the 5x5.
Note that every mill has different standards to how thin they sand the platform core and slice and sand the face veneers, so as I've found the hard way (i.e. not adjusting CNC machining dado patterns after switching brands) actual thickness can vary as much as .5mm from one brand to the next.
edit: I got so carried away that I neglected my
on the W5 / Alpair A10.2 question - I've heard them both, and while the TB is quite nicely made, found the Alpair more neutral and extended in the top end - in a full sized MLTL (Pensil, Brines' M10-A10) they are quite satisfying.
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Thanks Chris for all that great info on ply. That really is the next level in plywood I reckon. Went to Windsor Plywood yesterday. 5x5 BB $59.99, ( 3/4" - 13 ply possibly?...at least that's what I counted) looked pretty good. 4x8 Russian BB $89.99 (Said it was good for outdoor use, so will fit right in living on the Wet Coast)
Have read about the use of hardwood for speaker building on this and other forums and I think it's a no no for sure. I was wondering about this guys project.
Simply Exotic - Mai 2012 - Loudspeakermagazine 2012 | Loudspeakerbuilding
(scroll down to pics)
He uses a combo of mdf and what he calls Beech Plywood. I'm thinking that's a little different from BB plywood. It looks like my kitchen table from Ikea. Strips of Beech wood joined together (laminated?). Is this type of material acceptable, at least more so than real hardwoods?
Looks nice, but wouldn't want it to burst at the seems a little later on... Chris...any thoughts?
TIA
Have read about the use of hardwood for speaker building on this and other forums and I think it's a no no for sure. I was wondering about this guys project.
Simply Exotic - Mai 2012 - Loudspeakermagazine 2012 | Loudspeakerbuilding
(scroll down to pics)
He uses a combo of mdf and what he calls Beech Plywood. I'm thinking that's a little different from BB plywood. It looks like my kitchen table from Ikea. Strips of Beech wood joined together (laminated?). Is this type of material acceptable, at least more so than real hardwoods?
Looks nice, but wouldn't want it to burst at the seems a little later on... Chris...any thoughts?
TIA
Yes, your count sounds right on the number of plies in the 18mm.
IINM, each of the Windsor stores are independent franchises, and based on floor space and local customer demand will not all carry the entire range of products available through the corporate buying group. The one down the street from us only carries "Russian" BB in 5x5 ( be aware that there quite a few generic names applied to products manufactured in the eastern Euro, former USSR countries, as well as the Scanda-hoovians).
If the veneer on at least one side of the 4x8 are decent enough for a finished face, I'd be inclined to go with that, as for the price - it is what it is.
I've been buying BB from at least 3 suppliers for over 10yrs, and have noticed a marked deterioration in quality over the past 3-4 (including full de-lamination of core when cut, and substantially more patches , sometimes on both faces) Mind you this particular product was stocked as a "shop-grade" core, not intended for finished use, and other suppliers may offer a better grade product in the same dimensions.
As for the wide range of combination core sheet goods, they're fine for furniture and millwork cabinets, but without "getting into it", I prefer to not use them for loudspeakers. Well, except for bamboo - but starting at well over $200 a sheet, you tend to be very careful with your design and material break-out.
Solids? Once can certainly get stunning results ( I have a pair of small desk-top speakers with FF85WKs that were made by Bernie) I don't have quite the confidence to try that myself, nor do I have enough experience to speak other than theoretically on the subject of their endurance - I'd imagine that environmental conditions would play a big part. A sealed, humidity and temperature controlled would I guess be "ideal".
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Here's a little info on Beech plywood.
Beech plywood, beech veneered plywood / beech faced plywood :: Winwood Products
Beech plywood, beech veneered plywood / beech faced plywood :: Winwood Products
Cal - thanks for that
Kastanza: looks you can add another local supplier to your shopping list
Specialty Wood & Flooring Experts | Sidney,Vancouver Island, BC
but Cal was probably holding back on that
edit: looks like only the Sidney branch - fairly close to one of the local remaining working boatyards ( Philbrooks)
Kastanza: looks you can add another local supplier to your shopping list
Specialty Wood & Flooring Experts | Sidney,Vancouver Island, BC
but Cal was probably holding back on that
edit: looks like only the Sidney branch - fairly close to one of the local remaining working boatyards ( Philbrooks)
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Bernie certainly knows what he is doing with solid, but still my yewwood uFonkenSET had to go back for some remedial attention when one of the side panels started developing a crack -- and these are quite small speakers. Issues go up with the size of the panel. larger panels are best made as butcher blocks.
dave
Sydney is local Chris?
Sidney is more or less local, Sydney (at least one of them) is a LONG boat trip.
dave
Sydney is local Chris?
gee, I hope it's OK to use the quote here: YES Cal you're right - Westwind is one of the few suppliers we deal with who don't mainland branches
Sorry Chris, just trying to have a little fun.
New West - Tsawwassen - Ferry - Sydney - Ferry - Tsawwassen - New West.
And no it's not ok to abuse the quote button. Anymore of that and I report you to the site owner who has a sneaky way of making your life miserable. I think he has Sue's cell number.
New West - Tsawwassen - Ferry - Sydney - Ferry - Tsawwassen - New West.
And no it's not ok to abuse the quote button. Anymore of that and I report you to the site owner who has a sneaky way of making your life miserable. I think he has Sue's cell number.
TABAQ Large
Kastanza
I have not listened to the 5" TB. TABAQ Large was designed for a DIYer in Sweden wanting something more than the 4" TB in the original TABAQ.
TABAQ works with several drivers in the 3 - 4 inch range.
http://www.coolcat.dk/bjoern/TABAQ_TL_for_TB.pdf
Hi from Bjorn
Kastanza
I have not listened to the 5" TB. TABAQ Large was designed for a DIYer in Sweden wanting something more than the 4" TB in the original TABAQ.
TABAQ works with several drivers in the 3 - 4 inch range.
http://www.coolcat.dk/bjoern/TABAQ_TL_for_TB.pdf
Hi from Bjorn
Sorry Chris, just trying to have a little fun.
New West - Tsawwassen - Ferry - Sydney - Ferry - Tsawwassen - New West.
And no it's not ok to abuse the quote button. Anymore of that and I report you to the site owner who has a sneaky way of making your life miserable. I think he has Sue's cell number.
2 things;
1) Sue never answers her phone
2) married 40yrs, try finding a way to make my life any more miserable
(did I say that out loud?)
so, please report me for abuse, unless it wasn't clear as to which of your recent posts I was addressing
note: going on week 3 of a bout of sciatica, so apologies for the grumpiness
I must say, I was rather disappointed not to see the Opera House when I visited Sidney.
Ignorant question here: Why all the transmission line designs? A quick sim reveals an f3 of 52 Hz when using a W5-1611SA in a regular ported box. The TL seems like an awfully complex route for that extra 10 Hz of bass extension. I also generally prefer front ported designs. But hey... Maybe there's a good reason. Please elaborate.
I have a pair of W5-1611SA that I was considering stuffing in a pair of IKEA bowls. The 8ish liter volume of those bowls is about perfect for a sealed box. But f3 of 100 Hz (and the $20/each for the bowls) is not so attractive.
~Tom
Ignorant question here: Why all the transmission line designs? A quick sim reveals an f3 of 52 Hz when using a W5-1611SA in a regular ported box. The TL seems like an awfully complex route for that extra 10 Hz of bass extension. I also generally prefer front ported designs. But hey... Maybe there's a good reason. Please elaborate.
I have a pair of W5-1611SA that I was considering stuffing in a pair of IKEA bowls. The 8ish liter volume of those bowls is about perfect for a sealed box. But f3 of 100 Hz (and the $20/each for the bowls) is not so attractive.
~Tom
TL - Why
TL - Quarter Wave - has a much better control of the bass, which can be seen by the impedance curve. The result is a much cleaner bass.
In a bass reflex, the cone is out of control below the tuning frequency. In a quarter wave you will se that the cone movement is more in control. Not as good as a closed enclosure, but much better than a bass reflex.
If you test with a sinus tone in a bass reflex, below the tuning frequency, and listen to the port you will see what I mean.
About "awfylly complex route". I do not consider TABAQ or TABAQ LARGE complex
TL - Quarter Wave - has a much better control of the bass, which can be seen by the impedance curve. The result is a much cleaner bass.
In a bass reflex, the cone is out of control below the tuning frequency. In a quarter wave you will se that the cone movement is more in control. Not as good as a closed enclosure, but much better than a bass reflex.
If you test with a sinus tone in a bass reflex, below the tuning frequency, and listen to the port you will see what I mean.
About "awfylly complex route". I do not consider TABAQ or TABAQ LARGE complex
Do you have a drawing which translates the lengths indicated in the MathCad document to the dimensions of the box? I find myself a bit lost here...
Looking at your TABAQ_TL_for_TB.pdf, building one of these boxes doesn't look any more difficult than building a bass reflex (ported) box.
~Tom
Looking at your TABAQ_TL_for_TB.pdf, building one of these boxes doesn't look any more difficult than building a bass reflex (ported) box.
~Tom
Looks like Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design has tons of stuff available. I'll have to poke around there.
Yay! Learning something new.
~Tom
Yay! Learning something new.
~Tom
Love talking to myself here... I think I get the idea behind these TL speakers now. One question, though: What's the best way for managing the impedance discontinuity when going from the big TL to the small TL ("port")?
It looks like most TL designs are very skinny and wouldn't allow the driver much breathing room. Would it be an advantage to make the cabinet, say, 2 cm wider so the driver could breathe better or is the tall & skinny model better? And why?
~Tom
I think I get the idea behind these TL speakers now. One question, though: What's the best way for managing the impedance discontinuity when going from the big TL to the small TL ("port")?It looks like most TL designs are very skinny and wouldn't allow the driver much breathing room. Would it be an advantage to make the cabinet, say, 2 cm wider so the driver could breathe better or is the tall & skinny model better? And why?
~Tom
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