Hi-Fi Full Range speakers playing complex music

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Dynamics

I think the ability of a system to reproduce life like dynamics is the most important performance criteria that we can use to compare system to system and of course systems to live music.

As per my previous post my definition of dynamics is the ability to jump from quiet passages to loud passages and back from loud to quiet (no ghost echo's as cones wobble like a mass on a spring) as cleanly as possible.

In order to do this at realistic SPL's with low distortion a speaker system requires a lot of cone area. If there is a way to this with a single full range driver I would love to learn about it as it would save me a lot of time and money.

Some folks enjoy low SPL's and limited dynamics music from a single midrange driver / broad band driver with compromised low end and top end and thats great... Even car radio's can make you sing along and boom box's are good at parties, but they are not by definition Hi- Fidelity.

Like everyone else on the forum I can only speak from my own experience and give my own opinions, but I do believe my experince and opinion carries some weight as have designed and built a lot of different speaker / amp systems with a good degree of commercial success and very well peer reviewed by both the pro and consumer audio press.

Re Trolls, its interesting that adson believes his opinion carries weight when he has neither built nor heard a BMR line array..Says it all really.
 
While great dynamic range would be one of the desirable characteristics in a perfect speaker, generally it is mostly not possible. Either because of the room and milieu, because of detrimental factors to the other aspects of the sound, or both.

In the same way that it is perfectly possible to enjoy a movie on a smaller screen than a projection screen (both of which have far less dynamic light range than real life), the ear can also compensate and abstract from the fact that the sound is less loud than it would be in reality. In fact that is a most important aspect of our sensory apparatus. IE. the ability to adjust.
Where you ever in a room with coloured light for a longer period of time, then to step into another room with white light, only to perceive the white light as the complimentary colour of the one you're eyes were just normalized to, then you will have experienced a clear example of this.

Both doppler distortion and dynamic range is something that there are numerous known and well working solutions/partial cures to though, and traditional multiway speakers are not exempt these phenomena at all either.

What I find especially grating in the sound of most traditional two or three-ways, is the higher frequencies, which often sound detached and strained. This is due to many factors, some of which are:
- Different tonal character of the tweeter cone from the mid/midbass.
- Unnatural interaction with the room due to different and abruptly changing dispersion characteristics of the drivers. And likewise unnatural off-axis sound (the brain knows how to handle treble rolling off, as that happens often in natural settings, not so with weird dibs and ribbling in the middle of the spectrum)
- The overlapping region has some weird effects going on and the two drivers are generally strained (IE distorting the most) in the region where the ear is most sensitive.

A haiku says: There are many roads to the top of the mountain but over them all shines the same moon.
There are tendencies in other schools of hifi than FR, pointing towards some of the same findings. For example one of them being the resent return to larger tweeters covering more of the spectrum.
 
I think the ability of a system to reproduce life like dynamics is the most important performance criteria.....

Thats nice for you. Other opinions are available however

In order to do this at realistic SPL's.....

Realistic SPL's? In my living room? You have to be kidding. I'd hazard a guess that a large number can't, won't and don't expect to play at realistic SPL's because of various reasons including but not limited to neighbours, spouses, kids or maybe they value their hearing? Its not a realistic goal for many people so how how can it be the main design constraint?

Some folks enjoy low SPL's and limited dynamics music from a single midrange driver / broad band driver with compromised low end and top end and thats great... Even car radio's can make you sing along and boom box's are good at parties, but they are not by definition Hi- Fidelity.

Why such a condescending tone? Are we not allowed to enjoy our music on our systems without being told its no more than a boom box? Would you like us to take such a rude/cursory/snobbish glance at your creations? Why does one of your BMR arrays look like 8 dog food bowls hung on a wall?

I do believe my experince and opinion carries some weight as have designed and built a lot of different speaker / amp systems with a good degree of commercial success and very well peer reviewed by both the pro and consumer audio press.

If building some speakers & amps is a criteria to decide the weight of an opinion then there are many MUCH bigger fish in this pond. If you want commercial success/acclaim to be another criteria you forget you are on a DIY forum. This site exists because we chose another way of doing things. There is not much stock put in the commercial press here.

Re Trolls, its interesting that adson believes his opinion carries weight when he has neither built nor heard a BMR line array..Says it all really.

And yet I'd rather listen to him! Have you heard/built at least half the full range systems available? Yet you happily knock the speakers of thousands of members who post in the Full Range forum all the while banging on about your BMR line array!

We all have an opinion. Stating it a fact should get us called out or at least questioned. Placing/mentioning our own products repeatedly while knocking everyone else is correctly described as trolling. Keep it up and your opinion will carry as much weight as a fart in a hurricane

And before the BMR line array gets product placed again the OP asked about SINGLE DRIVERS
 
Roads over the mountain...

Hi Squeak,

What a fab expression " There are many roads to the top of the mountain but over them all shines the same moon." Thanks for that, I will use that and claim the credit...! LOL

You make several good points and I agree that our ear brain and our eye brain compensation and adjustment makes up for a lot of the missing info in audio and movies.

Also larger high frequency Sd is gaining in popularity ( rightly so imo) as the screetchy distorted 1 inch domes have been pushed too far.

Thanks again, good post.
Cheers
D.
 
In reply to the OP all speakers have trouble with complex music. Why else would they all be playing very simple choons at hifi events? So you can hear them at their unstressed best.


Single drivers are just another style of compromise. You don't expect everything top to bottom but what you do get can be magical - clear, see-through vanishingly fast, intimate and even a little bass ;)

They are so cheap to make, have a look a Planet10's plans. Everyone who builds them seems to be happy
 
Curious what "full range"/"wide range" driver implementations are being used by those that listen to large symphonies loud? One previous suggestion (adason) was to "liberate them from low frequencies".

SMathews

Exactly. The reason that single-driver speakers "fall apart" is FM distortion. If you need large dynamic headroom, put the bass on a large woofer and XO below 300Hz and you get the best of both worlds. This the the FAST idea, but now we are talking a multi-way speaker. The reason FAST is allowed here is that it preserves the single speaker mid-range while the normal 2-way XO's 1500-2000Hz and screws up the phasing in the middle of the telephone band.

Bob
 
Mr Angry...

Whoah Jamesy boy...calm down and remember to take your medication...Matron will be along soon...LOL!

Remember we are all here today to share and help each other, now ...
My name is Derek and I am an addict, I need a high end system to really do it for me....
Perspective is everything... ( stolen from someone else!)
 
Exactly. The reason that single-driver speakers "fall apart" is FM distortion. If you need large dynamic headroom, put the bass on a large woofer and XO below 300Hz and you get the best of both worlds. This the the FAST idea, but now we are talking a multi-way speaker. The reason FAST is allowed here is that it preserves the single speaker mid-range while the normal 2-way XO's 1500-2000Hz and screws up the phasing in the middle of the telephone band.

Bob

+1

Some of the best sound I have enjoyed has come from a single (pair) of 4" drivers. The only thing it didn't do was realistic headroom (or dynamic range, if you prefer). That's fine - it's an acceptable compromise.

Having heard speakers which DO manage the dynamic range thing, of course I want both but that's not going to happen without more complexity, e.g. a horn, line array or using the driver as Bob suggests.

Doesn't stop me enjoying the single driver system, though, used within its limits.
 
Bang for the buck

A great advantage of full range drivers is they can be DIY'd as modules, this can save money as you never need to upgrade or sell / give away old speakers, just keep adding more modules.

Just build a pair of simple sealed stackable box's with the right volume and internal damping for your chosen driver and cross them over to a sub ( 100Hz or below) or a decent bass / mid if crossing over up to 300Hz and you are up and running.
Then as time and funds allow, and IF(broad church of listeners and all that!!);) you feel the need for greater dynamics / lower distortion etc simply build another pair or two pairs and so on until you reach what ever level of performance your heart desires...Or you run of money!

This also is great if you move house or need to change listening rooms or add more rooms ie small system in kids room / kitchen and bigger system in lounge.
Just make sure the boxes are as small in height as possible as you need to minimise centre to centre driver spacing, esp with small or mini arrays that suffer from floor / celing bounce cancelations.

Hope this helps
Cheers
D.
 
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Joined 2011
overkill audio. please share what are all the Fullrange you have heard in your life. what is your experience exactly.


My experience is as followed:
A fullrange can be amazing, but not for bass. you need support if you want real hifi sound at realistic level.

I think that 4 inch fullrange is good only for low level music. You cannot expect to do big bass, not even close.
I think that a single driver will never be satisfactory for someone who listens to electronica, or jazz at realistic level. there is no way a 4 inch driver will manage that.
however, a 8inch fullrange already can maybe do it, but forget the punch of a real woofer. It is just physically impossible.

I could have lived with the highs of my fe127 and my alpair12p, but I could have never lived without a punchy bass as I listen to a lot of electronica, and jazz that requires real deep, fast bass that shakes your body. For me hifi is not just a clean midrange, but a amazing bass that thumps on your chest and that makes you FEEL the bass, not hear it, FEEL it.
Anyone that say that you can feel a 4inch driver is not honest.

Even with stereo subs, and my fullrange, I didnt have that punch that my 3-way gives me.

BTW, I have never heard a classic 2-way crossing at 1khz besides cheap vintage speakers, or a tannoy 15 inch red, and well, its amazing. My 3-way is almost like a FAST system: XO at 300hz/5khz. so the coherency is not a issue and the midrange sounds pretty much crossover less. I kinda prefer the highs I have now then what I had with my fullrange used to deliver, but the FR highs was pretty good also.

The problem of a fullrange is probably the midbass section, where all the fundamentals of the instruments are. When you have a dedicated woofer that go up to 200hz, well a fullrange can be totally amazing.
But I do not beleive that a fullrange can create the bass I want. and we kinda have more choice for amazing midranges when you go multiway.
however, I have not heard the best of supravox, or lowthers, ect. the mark audio 12p mid was amazing, much better then fostex, but my mids are even better now, so I'm off the FR section!

I do not beleive in the lack of coherency statement about 2 way or 3 way. a good 2 way or 3 way will be perfectly coherent, just like a fullrange, IF done right of course!
 
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In reply to the OP all speakers have trouble with complex music. Why else would they all be playing very simple choons at hifi events? So you can hear them at their unstressed best.
well, sure. but some speakers have less problem then others!

Single drivers are just another style of compromise. You don't expect everything top to bottom but what you do get can be magical - clear, see-through vanishingly fast, intimate and even a little bass ;)
it is a BIG compromise. Having the bass roll offs at 70 hz is not a small compromise, I wouldnt even call it a compromise, I would call it a problem that need to be solved really.
And I do get magical midrange with a 3 way. WHAT IOS THIS TREND TO SAY THAT YOU CANNOY HAVE MAGICAL MIDRANGE WITH MULTI WAYS? what is your experience with multi ways?

They are so cheap to make, have a look a Planet10's plans. Everyone who builds them seems to be happy
everybody are happy with their fullrange? not me, I wasnt.but when I heard a good 2 or 3 way...
 
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None of the full range speakers I have built roll off at 70Hz. Anyone who thinks that is what to expect from full range has limited experience with full rangers.

And now I am guilty of feeding multiple trolls. I apologize.

Note: Bob Marley is not "rock".
 
Founder of XSA-Labs
Joined 2012
Paid Member
None of the full range speakers I have built roll off at 70Hz. Anyone who thinks that is what to expect from full range has limited experience with full rangers.

And now I am guilty of feeding multiple trolls. I apologize.

Note: Bob Marley is not "rock".

+1. 70 Hz is for girlie-man full range speakers. More like 50 Hz with a 4 in and 30 Hz with an 8 inch FR. Lowest note on double bass or electric bass is 41 Hz. Below that is HT stuff.
 
it is a BIG compromise. Having the bass roll offs at 70 hz is not a small compromise, I wouldnt even call it a compromise, I would call it a problem that need to be solved really.

And that is your opinion based on your experience, not a plain fact as presented. If your speakers rolled of at 70hz something went wrong

And I do get magical midrange with a 3 way. WHAT IOS THIS TREND TO SAY THAT YOU CANNOY HAVE MAGICAL MIDRANGE WITH MULTI WAYS? what is your experience with multi ways?

About 20 years ranging from DIY to £15k. 2/3/4 way, line arrays (oh crap now I'm talking about them ;)) I think its easier to screw up a multiway than a fullrange as the 70hz remark shows. I get 30hz at good volume

everybody are happy with their fullrange? not me, I wasnt.but when I heard a good 2 or 3 way...
Again thats your experience, which could be down to a badly built speaker and not a common fault of FR speakers.

I'm moving over to 2way with 1.4" CD drivers/8cell horns and 15inch bass. Its not a comment on FR, I'm just restless :D I gonna build some little FRs anyways
 
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