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Old 24th April 2013, 02:10 PM   #31
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Talking Mr Angry...

Whoah Jamesy boy...calm down and remember to take your medication...Matron will be along soon...LOL!

Remember we are all here today to share and help each other, now ...
My name is Derek and I am an addict, I need a high end system to really do it for me....
Perspective is everything... ( stolen from someone else!)
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Old 24th April 2013, 02:39 PM   #32
Colin is offline Colin  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
Exactly. The reason that single-driver speakers "fall apart" is FM distortion. If you need large dynamic headroom, put the bass on a large woofer and XO below 300Hz and you get the best of both worlds. This the the FAST idea, but now we are talking a multi-way speaker. The reason FAST is allowed here is that it preserves the single speaker mid-range while the normal 2-way XO's 1500-2000Hz and screws up the phasing in the middle of the telephone band.

Bob
+1

Some of the best sound I have enjoyed has come from a single (pair) of 4" drivers. The only thing it didn't do was realistic headroom (or dynamic range, if you prefer). That's fine - it's an acceptable compromise.

Having heard speakers which DO manage the dynamic range thing, of course I want both but that's not going to happen without more complexity, e.g. a horn, line array or using the driver as Bob suggests.

Doesn't stop me enjoying the single driver system, though, used within its limits.
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Old 24th April 2013, 03:01 PM   #33
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Default Bang for the buck

A great advantage of full range drivers is they can be DIY'd as modules, this can save money as you never need to upgrade or sell / give away old speakers, just keep adding more modules.

Just build a pair of simple sealed stackable box's with the right volume and internal damping for your chosen driver and cross them over to a sub ( 100Hz or below) or a decent bass / mid if crossing over up to 300Hz and you are up and running.
Then as time and funds allow, and IF(broad church of listeners and all that!!) you feel the need for greater dynamics / lower distortion etc simply build another pair or two pairs and so on until you reach what ever level of performance your heart desires...Or you run of money!

This also is great if you move house or need to change listening rooms or add more rooms ie small system in kids room / kitchen and bigger system in lounge.
Just make sure the boxes are as small in height as possible as you need to minimise centre to centre driver spacing, esp with small or mini arrays that suffer from floor / celing bounce cancelations.

Hope this helps
Cheers
D.
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Old 24th April 2013, 03:05 PM   #34
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Everyone, please stop feeding it.
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Old 24th April 2013, 04:36 PM   #35
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Mr Brines: your restraint is admirable, and your points spot on
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Old 24th April 2013, 05:58 PM   #36
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overkill audio. please share what are all the Fullrange you have heard in your life. what is your experience exactly.


My experience is as followed:
A fullrange can be amazing, but not for bass. you need support if you want real hifi sound at realistic level.

I think that 4 inch fullrange is good only for low level music. You cannot expect to do big bass, not even close.
I think that a single driver will never be satisfactory for someone who listens to electronica, or jazz at realistic level. there is no way a 4 inch driver will manage that.
however, a 8inch fullrange already can maybe do it, but forget the punch of a real woofer. It is just physically impossible.

I could have lived with the highs of my fe127 and my alpair12p, but I could have never lived without a punchy bass as I listen to a lot of electronica, and jazz that requires real deep, fast bass that shakes your body. For me hifi is not just a clean midrange, but a amazing bass that thumps on your chest and that makes you FEEL the bass, not hear it, FEEL it.
Anyone that say that you can feel a 4inch driver is not honest.

Even with stereo subs, and my fullrange, I didnt have that punch that my 3-way gives me.

BTW, I have never heard a classic 2-way crossing at 1khz besides cheap vintage speakers, or a tannoy 15 inch red, and well, its amazing. My 3-way is almost like a FAST system: XO at 300hz/5khz. so the coherency is not a issue and the midrange sounds pretty much crossover less. I kinda prefer the highs I have now then what I had with my fullrange used to deliver, but the FR highs was pretty good also.

The problem of a fullrange is probably the midbass section, where all the fundamentals of the instruments are. When you have a dedicated woofer that go up to 200hz, well a fullrange can be totally amazing.
But I do not beleive that a fullrange can create the bass I want. and we kinda have more choice for amazing midranges when you go multiway.
however, I have not heard the best of supravox, or lowthers, ect. the mark audio 12p mid was amazing, much better then fostex, but my mids are even better now, so I'm off the FR section!

I do not beleive in the lack of coherency statement about 2 way or 3 way. a good 2 way or 3 way will be perfectly coherent, just like a fullrange, IF done right of course!

Last edited by murphythecat8; 24th April 2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 24th April 2013, 06:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
In reply to the OP all speakers have trouble with complex music. Why else would they all be playing very simple choons at hifi events? So you can hear them at their unstressed best.
well, sure. but some speakers have less problem then others!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
Single drivers are just another style of compromise. You don't expect everything top to bottom but what you do get can be magical - clear, see-through vanishingly fast, intimate and even a little bass
it is a BIG compromise. Having the bass roll offs at 70 hz is not a small compromise, I wouldnt even call it a compromise, I would call it a problem that need to be solved really.
And I do get magical midrange with a 3 way. WHAT IOS THIS TREND TO SAY THAT YOU CANNOY HAVE MAGICAL MIDRANGE WITH MULTI WAYS? what is your experience with multi ways?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
They are so cheap to make, have a look a Planet10's plans. Everyone who builds them seems to be happy
everybody are happy with their fullrange? not me, I wasnt.but when I heard a good 2 or 3 way...

Last edited by murphythecat8; 24th April 2013 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 24th April 2013, 06:53 PM   #38
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None of the full range speakers I have built roll off at 70Hz. Anyone who thinks that is what to expect from full range has limited experience with full rangers.

And now I am guilty of feeding multiple trolls. I apologize.

Note: Bob Marley is not "rock".
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Old 24th April 2013, 07:06 PM   #39
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cogitech View Post
None of the full range speakers I have built roll off at 70Hz. Anyone who thinks that is what to expect from full range has limited experience with full rangers.

And now I am guilty of feeding multiple trolls. I apologize.

Note: Bob Marley is not "rock".
+1. 70 Hz is for girlie-man full range speakers. More like 50 Hz with a 4 in and 30 Hz with an 8 inch FR. Lowest note on double bass or electric bass is 41 Hz. Below that is HT stuff.
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Old 24th April 2013, 07:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
it is a BIG compromise. Having the bass roll offs at 70 hz is not a small compromise, I wouldnt even call it a compromise, I would call it a problem that need to be solved really.
And that is your opinion based on your experience, not a plain fact as presented. If your speakers rolled of at 70hz something went wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
And I do get magical midrange with a 3 way. WHAT IOS THIS TREND TO SAY THAT YOU CANNOY HAVE MAGICAL MIDRANGE WITH MULTI WAYS? what is your experience with multi ways?
About 20 years ranging from DIY to 15k. 2/3/4 way, line arrays (oh crap now I'm talking about them ) I think its easier to screw up a multiway than a fullrange as the 70hz remark shows. I get 30hz at good volume

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
everybody are happy with their fullrange? not me, I wasnt.but when I heard a good 2 or 3 way...
Again thats your experience, which could be down to a badly built speaker and not a common fault of FR speakers.

I'm moving over to 2way with 1.4" CD drivers/8cell horns and 15inch bass. Its not a comment on FR, I'm just restless I gonna build some little FRs anyways
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