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Old 24th April 2013, 10:52 AM   #21
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Wink Dynamics

I think the ability of a system to reproduce life like dynamics is the most important performance criteria that we can use to compare system to system and of course systems to live music.

As per my previous post my definition of dynamics is the ability to jump from quiet passages to loud passages and back from loud to quiet (no ghost echo's as cones wobble like a mass on a spring) as cleanly as possible.

In order to do this at realistic SPL's with low distortion a speaker system requires a lot of cone area. If there is a way to this with a single full range driver I would love to learn about it as it would save me a lot of time and money.

Some folks enjoy low SPL's and limited dynamics music from a single midrange driver / broad band driver with compromised low end and top end and thats great... Even car radio's can make you sing along and boom box's are good at parties, but they are not by definition Hi- Fidelity.

Like everyone else on the forum I can only speak from my own experience and give my own opinions, but I do believe my experince and opinion carries some weight as have designed and built a lot of different speaker / amp systems with a good degree of commercial success and very well peer reviewed by both the pro and consumer audio press.

Re Trolls, its interesting that adson believes his opinion carries weight when he has neither built nor heard a BMR line array..Says it all really.
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Old 24th April 2013, 11:10 AM   #22
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I can only speak from my own experience
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Old 24th April 2013, 11:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
Re Trolls, its interesting that adson believes his opinion carries weight when he has neither built nor heard a BMR line array..Says it all really.
So basically your opinion trumps my opinion and your mission in life is to show me the errors of my way?

Bob
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Old 24th April 2013, 12:07 PM   #24
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Curious what "full range"/"wide range" driver implementations are being used by those that listen to large symphonies loud? One previous suggestion (adason) was to "liberate them from low frequencies".

SMathews
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Old 24th April 2013, 01:03 PM   #25
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Looking at the cone of a 15 inch speaker, it hardly moves, but when a Goodmans Maxim speaker is connect the cone flaps around in comparison.
There must be time component when using small drivers?
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Old 24th April 2013, 01:06 PM   #26
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While great dynamic range would be one of the desirable characteristics in a perfect speaker, generally it is mostly not possible. Either because of the room and milieu, because of detrimental factors to the other aspects of the sound, or both.

In the same way that it is perfectly possible to enjoy a movie on a smaller screen than a projection screen (both of which have far less dynamic light range than real life), the ear can also compensate and abstract from the fact that the sound is less loud than it would be in reality. In fact that is a most important aspect of our sensory apparatus. IE. the ability to adjust.
Where you ever in a room with coloured light for a longer period of time, then to step into another room with white light, only to perceive the white light as the complimentary colour of the one you're eyes were just normalized to, then you will have experienced a clear example of this.

Both doppler distortion and dynamic range is something that there are numerous known and well working solutions/partial cures to though, and traditional multiway speakers are not exempt these phenomena at all either.

What I find especially grating in the sound of most traditional two or three-ways, is the higher frequencies, which often sound detached and strained. This is due to many factors, some of which are:
- Different tonal character of the tweeter cone from the mid/midbass.
- Unnatural interaction with the room due to different and abruptly changing dispersion characteristics of the drivers. And likewise unnatural off-axis sound (the brain knows how to handle treble rolling off, as that happens often in natural settings, not so with weird dibs and ribbling in the middle of the spectrum)
- The overlapping region has some weird effects going on and the two drivers are generally strained (IE distorting the most) in the region where the ear is most sensitive.

A haiku says: There are many roads to the top of the mountain but over them all shines the same moon.
There are tendencies in other schools of hifi than FR, pointing towards some of the same findings. For example one of them being the resent return to larger tweeters covering more of the spectrum.
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Old 24th April 2013, 01:54 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
I think the ability of a system to reproduce life like dynamics is the most important performance criteria.....
Thats nice for you. Other opinions are available however

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
In order to do this at realistic SPL's.....
Realistic SPL's? In my living room? You have to be kidding. I'd hazard a guess that a large number can't, won't and don't expect to play at realistic SPL's because of various reasons including but not limited to neighbours, spouses, kids or maybe they value their hearing? Its not a realistic goal for many people so how how can it be the main design constraint?

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Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
Some folks enjoy low SPL's and limited dynamics music from a single midrange driver / broad band driver with compromised low end and top end and thats great... Even car radio's can make you sing along and boom box's are good at parties, but they are not by definition Hi- Fidelity.
Why such a condescending tone? Are we not allowed to enjoy our music on our systems without being told its no more than a boom box? Would you like us to take such a rude/cursory/snobbish glance at your creations? Why does one of your BMR arrays look like 8 dog food bowls hung on a wall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
I do believe my experince and opinion carries some weight as have designed and built a lot of different speaker / amp systems with a good degree of commercial success and very well peer reviewed by both the pro and consumer audio press.
If building some speakers & amps is a criteria to decide the weight of an opinion then there are many MUCH bigger fish in this pond. If you want commercial success/acclaim to be another criteria you forget you are on a DIY forum. This site exists because we chose another way of doing things. There is not much stock put in the commercial press here.

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Re Trolls, its interesting that adson believes his opinion carries weight when he has neither built nor heard a BMR line array..Says it all really.
And yet I'd rather listen to him! Have you heard/built at least half the full range systems available? Yet you happily knock the speakers of thousands of members who post in the Full Range forum all the while banging on about your BMR line array!

We all have an opinion. Stating it a fact should get us called out or at least questioned. Placing/mentioning our own products repeatedly while knocking everyone else is correctly described as trolling. Keep it up and your opinion will carry as much weight as a fart in a hurricane

And before the BMR line array gets product placed again the OP asked about SINGLE DRIVERS
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Old 24th April 2013, 02:01 PM   #28
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Default Roads over the mountain...

Hi Squeak,

What a fab expression " There are many roads to the top of the mountain but over them all shines the same moon." Thanks for that, I will use that and claim the credit...! LOL

You make several good points and I agree that our ear brain and our eye brain compensation and adjustment makes up for a lot of the missing info in audio and movies.

Also larger high frequency Sd is gaining in popularity ( rightly so imo) as the screetchy distorted 1 inch domes have been pushed too far.

Thanks again, good post.
Cheers
D.
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Old 24th April 2013, 02:04 PM   #29
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In reply to the OP all speakers have trouble with complex music. Why else would they all be playing very simple choons at hifi events? So you can hear them at their unstressed best.


Single drivers are just another style of compromise. You don't expect everything top to bottom but what you do get can be magical - clear, see-through vanishingly fast, intimate and even a little bass

They are so cheap to make, have a look a Planet10's plans. Everyone who builds them seems to be happy
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Old 24th April 2013, 02:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMathews View Post
Curious what "full range"/"wide range" driver implementations are being used by those that listen to large symphonies loud? One previous suggestion (adason) was to "liberate them from low frequencies".

SMathews
Exactly. The reason that single-driver speakers "fall apart" is FM distortion. If you need large dynamic headroom, put the bass on a large woofer and XO below 300Hz and you get the best of both worlds. This the the FAST idea, but now we are talking a multi-way speaker. The reason FAST is allowed here is that it preserves the single speaker mid-range while the normal 2-way XO's 1500-2000Hz and screws up the phasing in the middle of the telephone band.

Bob
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