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Old 23rd April 2013, 06:19 PM   #11
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yea, it depends on volume and type of music.

I think it is simple FM distortion, the lows modulating the highs making it sound garbled.

I think the spacial imaging (on full range drivers) is probably due to the narrower dispersion in the high end. You don't have much of the right speaker's highs hitting the left wall then going in the left ear.

My sons thiels don't really have a great center image compared to any full range single driver setup I've tried, but 1 thiel versus 1 full range drivers, the thiel (old model 4) wins on bass, distortion, and dynamics. Midrange is a little better on the full range probably due to no old crossover components in the path. Overall I prefer the thiels (I listen louder and to pink floyd and stuff like that).

but this worked very very well (9 x 4").
Click the image to open in full size.

I detest full range driver flat arrays. They smear the signal. Here is a pic of the transient response on a 32 x 2" flat array.
Click the image to open in full size.

here is the link to the kuze array (32 x 2").
http://www.parts-express.com/project.../Kuze3201.html

Norman

Last edited by norman bates; 23rd April 2013 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 24th April 2013, 12:09 AM   #12
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Default Size matters...A lot!

In order for a speaker to function as a true Line Array, the length of the driver array ( not just the cabinet length) must be at least 75% of the floor to celing height of the listening room.
There are a lot of fake or "mini arrays" (like the one pictured in Normans post) which give true line arrays a bad reputation. These fake arrays are a waste of money and not worth building as the floor and celing bounces mess up the imaging and there are not enough drivers / Sd to generate low distortion high SPL's.

Garbage in = garbage out...Forget using a bucket load of cheap 2 inch or 3 inch midrange drivers and hoping / praying that they will turn into a seamless line of full range high end drivers if you use enough of them...
50 times a crap driver will always sound 50 times worse!

All drivers will require Eq to give the best results, some are so good you may not need it, but they would still benefit from it.
Some drivers are so bad / not suited to a full range line array that no amount of DSP & Eq will help.
Choose a good driver with good specs and build quailty, this is vital as cheap " bucket" drivers have very poor tolerances, often plus / minus 15% or even 20% spec tolerances.
This is a sonic train wreck for any line array design. You really need plus or minus 5% tolerances to build a good line array.

As a rough guide to number of drivers / Sd required I have found that anything below about 550 Sd ( a typical 12 inch driver area) requires a sub crossed in around 80Hz to give medium to high SPL's with low distortion full range music.
550 Sd to 750 Sd is depending on taste.
Above 750Sd you can Rock...No sub required!

I use 16 BMR's ( 4.5 inch ) per speaker, 60 Sd per driver so 960 Sd per side, this is equal to a 15 inch driver and I can assure you they play loud, clear and with very low distortion!

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
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Old 24th April 2013, 12:20 AM   #13
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there is lots of bs assumptions in this thread...like 26 dB headroom needed....or 50 times a crap driver will always sound 50 times worse...these do not even deserve the response
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Old 24th April 2013, 12:46 AM   #14
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Wink 26dB of headroom is great!

Re 26 dB headroom...I agree with colin and disagree with adson.

I think if you listen to a quiet piece of piano for a few moments at maybe 60dB to 65dB then suddenly the whole orchestra kicks in at 100dB you will really enjoy the experience... Live music has 40 dB swings sometimes more.

Now most hifi systems would fail to make that 35dB to 40dB jump cleanly, but even a 26dB jump will sound good if done with low distortion.

Re 50 times a crap driver will always sound 50 times worse, I agree with me and disagree with you.
Now if you care to post photos of the 5 or 6 different line arrays you have designed and built to prove your statement then your opinion might actually be of value to the forum. Until then...Well not worth responding to I guess.
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Old 24th April 2013, 01:49 AM   #15
adason is offline adason  United States
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you talking about fullrange driver ovarkill audio? 9 dB is recommended:
The European Broadcasting Union (EBU) specifies a PML of 9 dB below 0 dBFS (-9 dBFS), thus giving 9 dB of headroom.
as for line arrays, no I have not designed 5-6 crappy line arrays as you did, but I know that 50 times a crap driver will never sound 50 times worse! just divide 50 times power to each and they behave much more linearly then one crap driver, naturally
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Old 24th April 2013, 01:51 AM   #16
adason is offline adason  United States
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and no, fullrange can not play complex music, they just fall apart
liberate them from low frequencies and they perform quite well...to be back on topic
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Old 24th April 2013, 01:52 AM   #17
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lol
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Old 24th April 2013, 02:18 AM   #18
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Why do we have to stand for these trolls who come to this forum and tell us what horribly misguided fools we are by wasting our time with single driver speakers? This is my hobby and this is what I choose to do with my time. I am not interested in being told why I can't be enjoying my music on my speakers. Just go away!

Bob
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Old 24th April 2013, 03:12 AM   #19
adason is offline adason  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
I think if you listen to a quiet piece of piano for a few moments at maybe 60dB to 65dB then suddenly the whole orchestra kicks in at 100dB you will really enjoy the experience... Live music has 40 dB swings sometimes more.

Now most hifi systems would fail to make that 35dB to 40dB jump cleanly, but even a 26dB jump will sound good if done with low distortion
.
that is dynamic range, not headroom
headroom is defined as how many time you can exceed its maximum ratings
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Old 24th April 2013, 05:03 AM   #20
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I for one can attest to the awesomeness of well built full-range speakers. I even threw 4 Dayton Audio RS100-4's into my car and they perform superbly all of the way down to 65hz (with proper port tuning).

Sure, the highs are not great since these are mounted in my doors but I do get great off-axis response to 8000hz+.

Go away trolls!
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Last edited by techbiker; 24th April 2013 at 05:16 AM.
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