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Old 11th April 2013, 04:57 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Cogitech,

When you did your shelf port experiment did you first run a WinISD calc to get the approximate length and tuning freq? Or did you just make a piece of cardboard of convenient length? It will have bass overshoot in a hump, but I believe it should be able to reach low due to the cabinet size. You will need to have some stuffing in top 2/3 or so though. It is 62 liter volume cabinet right?
Yes. I used WinISD to calculate various tunings/lengths. I could tell there was a change in the tuning, but it was so subtle that it made very little difference. It was like everything under 50Hz is -10dB, regardless of tuning. I literally had to have my ear beside the port to hear the difference; the in-room change was non-existent. So it is more a matter of amplitude than tuning. The tuning is probably pretty-much perfect, it is just that the amplitude is not balanced with the mids and highs (for my taste).

As planned, I installed the two old, paper, 12"ers (I thought they were 15", but I was wrong) in the console enclosures and hooked up a sub plate amp. So the console is essentially a massive, central, ~5 cu.ft. subwoofer with twin 12" drivers. The bass is ridiculous. Will post a few photos and details tomorrow.
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Old 11th April 2013, 12:00 PM   #72
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Cogitech,
Sorry it did not work out. It sounds like your idea of splitting the box into a 4th order bandpass sub on the lower section and a sealed box on the top with the Alpair is a good idea. You will have a nice FAST in a box. Bi-amping is the way to go, I would look into putting line-level cross-overs prior to the amps - or if you have a miniDSP already you are good to go.
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Old 11th April 2013, 02:03 PM   #73
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Cogitech,
Sorry it did not work out. It sounds like your idea of splitting the box into a 4th order bandpass sub on the lower section and a sealed box on the top with the Alpair is a good idea. You will have a nice FAST in a box. Bi-amping is the way to go, I would look into putting line-level cross-overs prior to the amps - or if you have a miniDSP already you are good to go.
I have no doubt that this solution would sound incredible.

However, the dollar signs quickly cha-ching when adding up the cost; woofers, amp, pre-amp, miniDSP... I own none of the components.

It is also impossible for me to forget how much bass I extracted from the Alpair 10.2s in the console enclosures. Now that I know it is possible, it seems silly to spend $500 on more components and complexity.

Which is why I said "what the heck" (or something to that effect) yesterday and installed the pair of 12" woofers and the plate amp into the console. I already owned all the components and it took me about an hour or so to do it. I do think it deserves its own thread, though, so look over in the Subwoofers forum a little later...
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Old 11th April 2013, 02:56 PM   #74
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As mentioned... Vintage Console Subwoofer Conversion
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Old 11th April 2013, 09:49 PM   #75
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So you won't be running the console as a full range with the Alpairs and the T-amp with tube pre-amp anymore?

Btw, the bi-amping with line-level cross-overs is not that expensive as you avoid big coils and big caps and power resistors normally required for passive crossovers. A couple of class D amps will not set you back too much as you already own at least one. The line level crossovers are small coils and caps between your source and your power amp. You may need an active buffer.
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Old 11th April 2013, 10:03 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by cogitech View Post

Which is why I said "what the heck" (or something to that effect) yesterday and installed the pair of 12" woofers and the plate amp into the console. I already owned all the components and it took me about an hour or so to do it. I do think it deserves its own thread, though, so look over in the Subwoofers forum a little later...

An excellent way to go actually. I'm surprised we don't see more of this. Unless someone want to cross higher than 80hz, or filter the bass out of their main (no doubt very good reason to do either of those in many cases) then just low pass a subwoofer around 60 to 80hz and enjoy.

That's how I do it in my living room with my TV setup. EL70s in sealed enclosures running full range and a little 8" sealed sub in the corner low passed around 70hz. Sounds freaking amazing and so little invested.

Spread the word, more people should do like cogitech did. It works so well.
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Old 11th April 2013, 11:12 PM   #77
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So you won't be running the console as a full range with the Alpairs and the T-amp with tube pre-amp anymore?
The T-amp + tube pre was never intended for the console, or for the main system at all. Rather, it will find a home in the bedroom system, driving the (w3-881SI) nanoTowers. The main system amp will remain the Shuguang I-25 EL34 P-P. I just love that amp.

The bass of the console blew my mind with the Alpairs, but as you'll recall, I needed some serious EQ on the top end to overcome the console's wooden grilles. It sounded fantastic compared to the original console speakers, but the imaging and sound stage just didn't satisfy the way naked Alpairs in Pensils do. I put the Alpairs back in the Pensils, and then started to miss the bass of the console, so I started brainstorming on different solutions...

Quote:
Btw, the bi-amping with line-level cross-overs is not that expensive as you avoid big coils and big caps and power resistors normally required for passive crossovers. A couple of class D amps will not set you back too much as you already own at least one. The line level crossovers are small coils and caps between your source and your power amp. You may need an active buffer.
Both the tube pre and class D amp are destined for the bedroom, as said, and I already have a very nice tube integrated for the main system, so switching to bi-amping would mean buying a proper pre-amp, another amp, and then I am not even sure that would work with my existing integrated. Too much gain can be a bad thing, as you know. If I already had separates, I might be tempted to just get another class D and and do some playing, but at this point I think I have found the path forward.

I have one other idea regarding the Pensils, but I will keep that to myself for now. Maybe a small hint: it involves a circular saw, a jig saw, and the purchase of something which is not yet released, but highly anticipated.
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Old 11th April 2013, 11:47 PM   #78
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An excellent way to go actually. I'm surprised we don't see more of this. Unless someone want to cross higher than 80hz, or filter the bass out of their main (no doubt very good reason to do either of those in many cases) then just low pass a subwoofer around 60 to 80hz and enjoy.

That's how I do it in my living room with my TV setup. EL70s in sealed enclosures running full range and a little 8" sealed sub in the corner low passed around 70hz. Sounds freaking amazing and so little invested.

Spread the word, more people should do like cogitech did. It works so well.
I thought about maybe filtering the bass out of the mains and I might consider it in the future. For now, the Alpairs can easily handle the full signal with a flat EQ (EQ disabled actually). I need to wrap my 25 watt volume knob pretty far to get ballsy excursion, and by that point WAF kicks in and the SPL is brought back to "just loud" levels. Need to get these woofers measured and tuned right before I leave all the bass up to them, too.
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Old 12th April 2013, 02:36 AM   #79
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If they can handle it, let them do it. They're not 3" full rangers. And then you have multiple bass sources to help smooth response. Wins all around.
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