Measurements will tell the story. Even in the same spot, a different speaker configuration can make a difference, although slight. It may just be the tunings are different. If the speaker is about 3ft from the rear wall, an 80hz null is a common problem. A subwoofer can really help here as it can be pushed tight to a wall. Speakers to close to a wall suffer when to close to a wall. Other nulls depend on the seat location more.
The 16" depth of these Pensils basically makes it necessary for them to be inches from the wall; otherwise WAF plummets. Perhaps I have chosen the wrong cabinet.
Either way, I will test the speakers at different distances from the wall to see if you that is the issue.
We've long held that cross bracing of larger panels on cabinets such at the Pensils is very important, particularly if the rear panel is made removable for fine tuning of damping, and our approach is certainly different than Bob's in several areas, but his M10-Al0 could be a more WAF alternative for a single A10 per side.
I built a pair pretty much according to his plans, and they work very well indeed.
I built a pair pretty much according to his plans, and they work very well indeed.
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now there's a thought - add to the short list for Mark's new product development - weather resistant drivers
does anyone know of a solar powered outdoor Air-tunes speaker?
Well, I did cross-brace, however I suspect that one of them might be too close to centre. Also, they are small, so I assumed I didn't need holes in them.
I will do some measurements, investigate, etc. but I may be looking at trashing the Pensils. I'm OK with that. Glad I didn't buy BB.
just driving in the truck and realized, how could I have forgotten to add Marcus Miller & Victor Wooten to the bass list, and for sheer funkified dynamics that'll test drive the ability of your system to hold together, anything by Maceo Parker "those Girls" - not bad tootin for a 70 year old
I think you misunderstood me.
The cabinets are 16" deep. If they were to be placed any more than a few inches from the wall, they would protrude into the room in a very WAF-reducing way. Heck, even I don't want the things in my way when I walk around the room. In this respect, the depth of the cabinet is most relevant. Had I known there was an issue placing them near the wall, I never would have built them. I refrained from building OB + H for this very reason.
An update on the bass issue:
I played the same song through all 3 sets of speakers. My nanoTowers and microTowers render the bass accurately, in the exact same positions. There is definitely something up with the Pensils. In other words, it isn't the room, or my ears.
No regrets. I hope to figure it out, but if I don't, then I will start from scratch.
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It sure looks that way, but to be sure, are the drivers and ports in the same location? If the more slender speakers are pushed against the wall more, that may make the bass better for that song, but will create an "issue" higher in frequency that is less easily identified.
Or if one is taller than the other, etc. I can see it changing so dramatically over a couple feet even, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just for complete trouble shooting.
I wonder what it could be... Have you done the battery test for polarity...?
EDIT - Does excursion go crazy when the bass disappears?
Or if one is taller than the other, etc. I can see it changing so dramatically over a couple feet even, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just for complete trouble shooting.
I wonder what it could be... Have you done the battery test for polarity...?
EDIT - Does excursion go crazy when the bass disappears?
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BTW, listening to U2 wowy right now because of you
Bass is full...
Same here. Even my crappy canadian pressing (original vinyl) has decent bass. I've never considered The Joshua Tree to be a bass reference album thou.
jeff
Thanks for the troubleshooting ideas. I am usually extremely OCD about polarity, so I doubt that is it, but I am curious about this battery test you speak of.
In the meantime; I've just removed all the stuffing from the bottom 1/3rd of each cabinet.
Dramatic improvement. Not perfect, but good enough that I likely would have never noticed it as it is now. More bass, and much better balance.
I'm going to live with it like this for a few days and see if there are any more warts I can discover.
I do find that listening to music that I have heard way too much helps me evaluate the low end. In this case, WOWY did the trick. Can't wait to play some Charlie Haden, Pastorias, etc. to hear the improvement, but my wife has asked me to leave U2 on for a while. It has been a long, long time since I have played them (so much of their stuff is so compressed I can barely stand to listen any more - funny how a good system can ruin so much music - but encourage new discoveries).
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Didn't realize you had the whole box stuffed. I only have the top half of my Super Pencils stuffed.
jeff
Instructions prescribe 1.6 pounds of polyfill.
Without further guidance, I defaulted to spreading it out evenly.
I cannot imagine cramming 1.6 pounds of it in the top half. Seems like it would choke the driver.
Specific stuffing techniques are often lacking in many plans.
"Stuff to suit" or "stuffing adjustable to suit..." only works if people already know how to tune stuffing.
It's called 'try it yourself.' I'm not going to spoon feed people something they are perfectly capable of experimenting with, above all since the optimal damping depends on system, room acoustics / placement, and perhaps most significantly personal taste. I cannot know any of these things for very obvious reasons, and one of the objects of these boxes was to give people something with a degree of flexibility in tuning via adjusting the damping density / location, which is not an especially onerous task.
That's one way to look at it.
On the other hand, some basic guidelines as a starting point might help less experienced people get better initial results.
As I have found, results can vary much more dramatically than I would have thought. Add to that the fact that solutions offered (in multiple threads, by multiple people) regarding my bass issue included everything except stuffing; I had built the cabintets wrong, my bracing was inadequate, it was a speaker placement issue, it was a room mode...
Many of these things I questioned myself, to be fair. However, stuffing never occurred to anyone as being the likely culprit.
All I am suggesting is some basic tips such as "generally, use less density or no stuffing in the bottom 1/3 or 1/2 of the cabinet" and/or "stuffing the entire cabinet evenly will result in sub-optimal bass performance." Not particularly onerous to add such a blurb to a build plan.
On the other hand, some basic guidelines as a starting point might help less experienced people get better initial results.
As I have found, results can vary much more dramatically than I would have thought. Add to that the fact that solutions offered (in multiple threads, by multiple people) regarding my bass issue included everything except stuffing; I had built the cabintets wrong, my bracing was inadequate, it was a speaker placement issue, it was a room mode...
Many of these things I questioned myself, to be fair. However, stuffing never occurred to anyone as being the likely culprit.
All I am suggesting is some basic tips such as "generally, use less density or no stuffing in the bottom 1/3 or 1/2 of the cabinet" and/or "stuffing the entire cabinet evenly will result in sub-optimal bass performance." Not particularly onerous to add such a blurb to a build plan.
Nice to hear your found your problem! I'm surprised box plans don't have more instructions for stuffing either... Huh. I've found that when ever I put stuffing near/over/next to ports it kills the port and you get really close to a sealed alignment. It's likely you were basically listening to them sealed, or very close.
I had my money on a room suck out
I had my money on a room suck out
I don't because a/ I would hope & am trying to encourage people to experiment for themselves, and b/ both of the blanket statements you make above are incorrect. In a specific set of circumstances, one or both may be, as you have discovered. In others, it is not. Default is a uniform stuffing density throughout the enclosure (see pages 1 & 10 http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil-Series-set-100711.pdf ), which will not automatically result in 'sub-optimal bass performance' and in many cases provides superior results. Ditto for the strong recommendation on all pages / plans that people build them with a removable back, to allow them to adjust the damping to suit their preferences / requirements more easily, and why all the plans are done indicating cleats for this purpose. I'm not going to dictate to people what to do, or what they should like. A default is given, and people can adjust from there to suit themselves.
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Some box plans actually do have very good general guidelines, such as "line the top, back, and one side wall with acoustic fiberglass and then stuff top half with polyfill, ensuring that the area immediately behind the driver is not too dense", or soemthing to that effect.
This still leaves room for adjustment to room or personal taste, and will rarely result in downright terrible performance.
Even if the designer stated "what worked for me was...yada yada...but you may need to adjust it".
This still leaves room for adjustment to room or personal taste, and will rarely result in downright terrible performance.
Even if the designer stated "what worked for me was...yada yada...but you may need to adjust it".
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