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Old 29th January 2013, 01:38 PM   #31
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wicked1 View Post
I guess that brings the question... Can speaker modeling programs really be trusted?
yes, but you need to learn how to 'fiddle' with the calculation try to lower Box Q
you can get low bass in closed box with a higher Qts driver, but generally low Fs will be the better main player

if you get a 'hump' like you say, your box is too small
when the box size is given you have a few other options
either use a driver with slightly lower Qts
or a driver with lower Vas
or both

I would suggest to aim for a nice looking gradual rolloff, round and smooth
for this small fullrange a well defined bass is likely to work best
with a very pronounced low end there will be risk of drowning it completely
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:06 PM   #32
IG81 is offline IG81  Canada
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The Acoustic Elegance drivers are quite good - at least I can speak on behalf of the TD15M. My 5ft^3 box tuned to 32Hz might seem to lack bass in simulation, due to an early, but very gradual roll-off, but this happens to complement my room very well. Speakers that are truly flat well into the bass can oftentimes be a bit much for certain rooms. Since you seem to be designing from scratch, tailoring that response to your taste is quite fortunately an option.

Another thing to keep in mind appart from a plain simulated transfer function, is that bass from a 12" or 15" woofer won't sound the same ast that from a 6" or 8", even for a comparable response. The larger drivers sound effortless and have greater radiating efficiency, handle loud transients better; they just sound more life-like to me. Still, a good 8" might be quite adept at doing a great job under FF85WK, which is not a high-power pro driver itself. I would personally consider the Peerless HDS Nomex-cone 6" or 8" for this job. I'm a bit at a loss for recommending a 12" that won't blow the budget though. I certainly would not spend 600$ on a pair of TD12M for 40Hz-300Hz duty.

IG
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Old 31st January 2013, 06:42 AM   #33
hajj is offline hajj  Lebanon
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Flame suit on, as I am about to commit what a lot of people consider to be sacrilege, but how about crossing over actively using a DSP and bi-amping the speakers?
The main advantage is that the choice of potential woofers will much bigger as you won't have to match its sensitivity to the FR driver's and use a relatively cheap high power class-D amp to drive the woofers.
Furthermore, good DSP's (like the mini-DSP) can be had for a fraction of what you might pay for decent passive crossover parts, and with an unlimited choice of crossover points allowing you infinite crossover frequencies and slopes.
Just a thought.
Nick

Last edited by hajj; 31st January 2013 at 06:46 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 31st January 2013, 07:05 AM   #34
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Flame suit on, as I am about to commit what a lot of people consider to be sacrilege, but how about crossing over actively using a DSP and bi-amping the speakers?
Nick,

I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been mentioned.

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Old 31st January 2013, 12:25 PM   #35
IG81 is offline IG81  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hajj View Post
Flame suit on, as I am about to commit what a lot of people consider to be sacrilege, but how about crossing over actively using a DSP and bi-amping the speakers?
Nick
Excellent way to go IMO, for all the reasons you mentionned and more. I'm using a MiniDSP on my large two-way pro driver setup, AE TD15M and BMS 4550 on QSC waveguide, I love it. It's possibly even a very lazy solution in my case, as my drivers and Xo point should not be hard to design passively for. When dealing with crossover points pretty close to both driver's Fs, as is the very case in a fullrange + woofer (FAST), you can save a whole lot of potential trouble by going active.

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Old 31st January 2013, 01:38 PM   #36
wicked1 is offline wicked1  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hajj View Post
Flame suit on, as I am about to commit what a lot of people consider to be sacrilege, but how about crossing over actively using a DSP and bi-amping the speakers?

Nick
Well, good thing you wore that flame suit, because.... hehe, just kidding..
But, no...... I'm not ready to go back to the dark side.. I switched to all tubes about 10 years ago, and haven't looked back.. I just finished my first tube amp that gets in to the double digits, (triple, even.. Ideally, I can get almost 100 watts out of it).

I don't know at this point.. I'd still have my all analog, all tube, phono to speaker system upstairs.... But, for this project for now, I'm sticking to tubes. Some day maybe I'll try that DSP. If people here recommend it, it must not add much to the sound.. But, how can it not add something?

I got a pair of cheap $40.00 woofers from MCM (12" die-cast).. It modeled surprisingly well, and get's relatively low. These will get me started until I have time to properly research speakers. If anyone wants to keep giving advice, I'm still looking for it.. But, will pop these woofers in and listen to my new amp and take some time w/ my research .
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Old 31st January 2013, 02:00 PM   #37
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I have went thrue the same task two month ago. I settled with the beyma 12br70. Their is not a lot of 12 inch that can go in the low 30's. The kappa pro was another contender, but thats about it. the AE was out of my price range.
just make sure that the driver you choose can go low enough for your needs
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Old 31st January 2013, 02:03 PM   #38
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It adds less to the sound, than a passive cross over does by not doing as good of a job.
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Old 31st January 2013, 02:05 PM   #39
hajj is offline hajj  Lebanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wicked1 View Post
Well, good thing you wore that flame suit, because.... hehe, just kidding..
But, no...... I'm not ready to go back to the dark side.. I switched to all tubes about 10 years ago, and haven't looked back.. I just finished my first tube amp that gets in to the double digits, (triple, even.. Ideally, I can get almost 100 watts out of it).

I don't know at this point.. I'd still have my all analog, all tube, phono to speaker system upstairs.... But, for this project for now, I'm sticking to tubes. Some day maybe I'll try that DSP. If people here recommend it, it must not add much to the sound.. But, how can it not add something?

I got a pair of cheap $40.00 woofers from MCM (12" die-cast).. It modeled surprisingly well, and get's relatively low. These will get me started until I have time to properly research speakers. If anyone wants to keep giving advice, I'm still looking for it.. But, will pop these woofers in and listen to my new amp and take some time w/ my research .
Well both approaches need not be mutually exclusive.

In my OB setup, I am using a flea watt EL34 SET amp (3 watts/channel) on my full range drivers (FF125WK's) and a very good sounding Class-D amp from class-D audio to drive the woofers. I like to think of it as the best of both worlds, or at least that's how it sounds to me.
The miniDSP actually adds very little to the sound, little enough not to be worth mentioning for most listening except the most critical.

Anyway, it's getting really hot under that heavy flame suit, so I guess I'm gonna take it off now and watch passively at how your projects evolves

Enjoy the ride

Nick
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Old 31st January 2013, 02:31 PM   #40
wicked1 is offline wicked1  United States
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That mini-DSP looks like a lot of fun! I'm already second guessing my xover points, etc, and this would let me figure that out, precisely. I may have to try it.
Thanks!
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