I would like to build a set of full range speakers with some very specific limitations.
Less than $300 finished.
Bookshelf or floor standing but no more then 8 inches wide and 12 inches deep.
My right speaker is about 16 inches from the back wall and 3 feet from the side wall.
My left speaker is about 3 inches from the back wall and 4 feet from the side wall.
Will be powered by a NAD 60wpc amp.
Suggestions?
Less than $300 finished.
Bookshelf or floor standing but no more then 8 inches wide and 12 inches deep.
My right speaker is about 16 inches from the back wall and 3 feet from the side wall.
My left speaker is about 3 inches from the back wall and 4 feet from the side wall.
Will be powered by a NAD 60wpc amp.
Suggestions?
Many, many projects conform to these limitations. $300 is actually a considerable budget for DIY audio speakers, IMHO. Consider that there are many very nice full range drivers at around $50 bucks each or less. This leaves $200, which is more than enough for some nice Baltic Birch ply and a few other bits and pieces.
Tell us more about your room and your overall listening preferences (types of music, tonal preferences (do you like a really clear or "hot" high end, or are you a bass head, or both, etc.)).
Some designs to consider, in the meantime: Frugal-phile DIY Audio Community Site
Tell us more about your room and your overall listening preferences (types of music, tonal preferences (do you like a really clear or "hot" high end, or are you a bass head, or both, etc.)).
Some designs to consider, in the meantime: Frugal-phile DIY Audio Community Site
I currently have a pair of Paradigm Atoms that whatever I build will be replacing.
As compared to the Atoms I would like something with similar range (at least down to 120hz), similar power handling/volume capability, slightly less bright, and overall just a more lifelike sound. More clarity, sound stage, imaging, etc.
As compared to the Atoms I would like something with similar range (at least down to 120hz), similar power handling/volume capability, slightly less bright, and overall just a more lifelike sound. More clarity, sound stage, imaging, etc.
My gut reaction, based on what you have said so far, is the Pensil 7.3, which uses the Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 (around 80 bucks each).
However, I have reservations about your SPL requirements. The Atoms are rated for 50 watts. Are you pushing them that hard on a regular basis?
The Alpair 7.3 are 20 watts each, which is more than enough for most people. However if you really like to listen at painful SPL, then a dual-driver full range solution might be better bet. Something slightly less graceful (and less expensive) but twice as much power handling.
However, I have reservations about your SPL requirements. The Atoms are rated for 50 watts. Are you pushing them that hard on a regular basis?
The Alpair 7.3 are 20 watts each, which is more than enough for most people. However if you really like to listen at painful SPL, then a dual-driver full range solution might be better bet. Something slightly less graceful (and less expensive) but twice as much power handling.
On a regular basis? No. But I have before and having that option in the future is preferable, but not a requirement if it means I would have to trade off the other items on my list. If there is a multi-driver option that I can have ALL items on my list for the same money, I would take that option as well. I just assumed the best fidelity per dollar solution was in full range drivers
FYI, my atoms are the older version 3. Plastic back, non-removable grill, lower quality drivers than the current version.
FYI, my atoms are the older version 3. Plastic back, non-removable grill, lower quality drivers than the current version.
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By dual-driver, I did not mean multi-way, but "multiple full range drivers".
There are several suitable designs that use 2 of the same driver in each enclosure, such as some variations of the Planet-10 microTower series and the "Lake District" series, which you will find on the site I linked to earlier.
You get double the power handling, more dynamic headroom, and better efficiency with double FRs. The downside is it doubles the expenditure on drivers unless you choose a more value-oriented driver, such as the CHR-70.
2 x Alpair 7.3 = ~$165
4 x CHR-70 = ~$150
There are several suitable designs that use 2 of the same driver in each enclosure, such as some variations of the Planet-10 microTower series and the "Lake District" series, which you will find on the site I linked to earlier.
You get double the power handling, more dynamic headroom, and better efficiency with double FRs. The downside is it doubles the expenditure on drivers unless you choose a more value-oriented driver, such as the CHR-70.
2 x Alpair 7.3 = ~$165
4 x CHR-70 = ~$150
If you are looking at the dual FR driver designs, I would think that two front-firing drivers might be the best choice, or perhaps one front-firing and one side-firing.
The problem with one front-firing and one rear-firing (bipole) is that your speakers are too close to the back wall (especially one of them) and since one is closer to the back wall, the sound would be unbalanced.
The problem with the "castle" configuration (one front, one top-firing) is again the back wall distance. The difference in proximity would leave the sound unbalanced...
By the way, all of these designs will dig way deeper than 120Hz. Are you currently using a sub to fill the bottom end?
The problem with one front-firing and one rear-firing (bipole) is that your speakers are too close to the back wall (especially one of them) and since one is closer to the back wall, the sound would be unbalanced.
The problem with the "castle" configuration (one front, one top-firing) is again the back wall distance. The difference in proximity would leave the sound unbalanced...
By the way, all of these designs will dig way deeper than 120Hz. Are you currently using a sub to fill the bottom end?
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Note: the Lake District series are all for the CSS EL70 drivers, which are discontinued and relatively difficult to find.
The Lotus^2 (2x CHR-70) might be a good one for you to consider. http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn-plans.html#BAS
The Lotus^2 (2x CHR-70) might be a good one for you to consider. http://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn-plans.html#BAS
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But would dropping back to the CHR or CHP really be a big step up from what I have now?
And the lotus^2 is not dual front firing... and it is a pretty complex build for what will essentially be my first attempt at making GOOD looking speakers.. And they arn't very wife friendly... I can get buy with some slim towers.. but a DBLH is out of the question.
And the lotus^2 is not dual front firing... and it is a pretty complex build for what will essentially be my first attempt at making GOOD looking speakers.. And they arn't very wife friendly... I can get buy with some slim towers.. but a DBLH is out of the question.
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CHR is a pretty good little driver according to most around here, but "big step up"? That's a bit of a stretch. Certainly they would offer more bass than what you have now (depeding on enclosure, of course), and probably pretty damned close in the mids and highs, but I am partly guessing here. Others will hopefully chime in with some opinions.
That brings us back to Pensil 7.3. I would say that this would be a significant step up from what you are used to, even at 20 watts per channel. It is a (relatively) simple build, has high WAF, easy for your amp to drive, and remember that much of the benefit of full rangers is that there is no crossover to get in the way of the sound. Overall listenability and "naturalness" will be better than what you are used to.
Regarding Lotus^2, you could probably do a dual front-firing configuration without much issue, but the one with a side-firing driver might work too. The build looks more complex than it is, but I know what you mean about trying to keep the first build simple. I did the same thing (ended up doing dual-EL70 microTowers with one front, one top-firing). The thing is, nearly all the designs I have seen benefit greatly from the "holey braces", which are by far the most work to cut and fit properly. The Pensil looks simple in comparison, but add in the holey braces and you are still looking at quite a lot of work.
That brings us back to Pensil 7.3. I would say that this would be a significant step up from what you are used to, even at 20 watts per channel. It is a (relatively) simple build, has high WAF, easy for your amp to drive, and remember that much of the benefit of full rangers is that there is no crossover to get in the way of the sound. Overall listenability and "naturalness" will be better than what you are used to.
Regarding Lotus^2, you could probably do a dual front-firing configuration without much issue, but the one with a side-firing driver might work too. The build looks more complex than it is, but I know what you mean about trying to keep the first build simple. I did the same thing (ended up doing dual-EL70 microTowers with one front, one top-firing). The thing is, nearly all the designs I have seen benefit greatly from the "holey braces", which are by far the most work to cut and fit properly. The Pensil looks simple in comparison, but add in the holey braces and you are still looking at quite a lot of work.
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Indeed. There are so many folks around here who will have much more to say on the matter, and most of them have a lot more experience with all these drivers and designs than I do. I have also never heard the Atoms, so you are right to take anything I say with a grain of salt.
Having said that, I should let you know where I am coming from. Before building my dual EL70 microTowers, I was used to listening to PSB Image B15 monitors. They are probably in the same category as your speakers (2-way, 5.25" woofer, decent power handling, etc.). PSB has an excellent reputation for building fantastic speakers at a great price.
The EL70s, at $45 each, (in a good cabinet design) are a significant step up with respect to "naturalness", smoothness, imaging, bass response, lack of listening fatigue... I could go on.
The CHR-70s are a similar driver, but with less bass and a hotter top end. This is why I thought they might be good for you if you decide you want the extra power and dynamic headroom of a dual FR setup. Many people, including me, wish the EL70 just had a bit more sparkle at the top.
The Alpair 7.3 are a major step above either of the 70s, as far as I know. The power sacrifice might be worth it. Others will definitely need to chime in on this.
At the risk of being annoying, some more anecdotal stuff; I have a friend who is an avid listener of Totem Sttaf. Those are a significant step up from my PSBs or your Atoms. When he was here visiting in August he heard my EL70 microTowers for the first time. He was "blown away" (his words). For 3 days he kept commenting on how incredible they sound, and he isn't one to go on and on about things just to be nice. When I told him the cost he nearly fell out of his chair (granted, he had a few beers by then).
Having said that, I should let you know where I am coming from. Before building my dual EL70 microTowers, I was used to listening to PSB Image B15 monitors. They are probably in the same category as your speakers (2-way, 5.25" woofer, decent power handling, etc.). PSB has an excellent reputation for building fantastic speakers at a great price.
The EL70s, at $45 each, (in a good cabinet design) are a significant step up with respect to "naturalness", smoothness, imaging, bass response, lack of listening fatigue... I could go on.
The CHR-70s are a similar driver, but with less bass and a hotter top end. This is why I thought they might be good for you if you decide you want the extra power and dynamic headroom of a dual FR setup. Many people, including me, wish the EL70 just had a bit more sparkle at the top.
The Alpair 7.3 are a major step above either of the 70s, as far as I know. The power sacrifice might be worth it. Others will definitely need to chime in on this.
At the risk of being annoying, some more anecdotal stuff; I have a friend who is an avid listener of Totem Sttaf. Those are a significant step up from my PSBs or your Atoms. When he was here visiting in August he heard my EL70 microTowers for the first time. He was "blown away" (his words). For 3 days he kept commenting on how incredible they sound, and he isn't one to go on and on about things just to be nice. When I told him the cost he nearly fell out of his chair (granted, he had a few beers by then).
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The MA Alpair 7.3 is definitely one of the drivers you can consider. Treble extension is very good, superb midrange. The EL-70 that Cogitech has mentioned is plenty good too, trading a slight bit of detail for some more bass. The EL-70 is more forgiving of poor material also. However EL-70 stocks finished with CSS, P10 Dave might still have a few pairs available.
The CHR-70 are good, specially for their price, but the Alp 7.3 is definitely better, and IMHO well worth the extra cost.
I've listened to Alp 7.3 in Dave's Mar-Ken and also the FH-MK3 - both very good. Yes, all these being 4" full-range drivers will have limitations on the bass that they deliver and SPL, but you always add a sub or helper woofer if you need more botton end. For inspiration you can take a look at a nice Alp 7.3 build with dual-drivers here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/227449-alpair-7-3-ht.html
For dual-driver designs (assuming you need the extra power handling - more SPL and less excursion) you can take a look at the Woden Mercia and Wessex dual-driver MLTLs:
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/woden/Mercia-MLTL-0v92-151209.pdf
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/woden/Wessex-MLTL-0v92-151209.pdf
The deafult plans are wide baffle and shallow sides. You can also build them with narrow baffle and deep sides if that suits you better.
The Micro Tower design that Cogitech mentioned is a good one and you will find lot of likes on that one. I even like Half-Towers which is a single driver version of that.
Sorry, no experience with the Atoms, so cannot comment, but all of these designs would go much lower than 120 Hz.
The CHR-70 are good, specially for their price, but the Alp 7.3 is definitely better, and IMHO well worth the extra cost.
I've listened to Alp 7.3 in Dave's Mar-Ken and also the FH-MK3 - both very good. Yes, all these being 4" full-range drivers will have limitations on the bass that they deliver and SPL, but you always add a sub or helper woofer if you need more botton end. For inspiration you can take a look at a nice Alp 7.3 build with dual-drivers here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/227449-alpair-7-3-ht.html
For dual-driver designs (assuming you need the extra power handling - more SPL and less excursion) you can take a look at the Woden Mercia and Wessex dual-driver MLTLs:
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/woden/Mercia-MLTL-0v92-151209.pdf
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/woden/Wessex-MLTL-0v92-151209.pdf
The deafult plans are wide baffle and shallow sides. You can also build them with narrow baffle and deep sides if that suits you better.
The Micro Tower design that Cogitech mentioned is a good one and you will find lot of likes on that one. I even like Half-Towers which is a single driver version of that.
Sorry, no experience with the Atoms, so cannot comment, but all of these designs would go much lower than 120 Hz.
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And don't forget, Alpair10.2 Silver are on sale at madisound.
$10 less than a pair of A7.3 you gain more robust, deeper bass, more potential dynamic, greater efficiency in exchange for lossing on the top, ultimate DDR, less dispersion, some find it a happy medium.
Me i'd go with A7.3 :^)
dave
$10 less than a pair of A7.3 you gain more robust, deeper bass, more potential dynamic, greater efficiency in exchange for lossing on the top, ultimate DDR, less dispersion, some find it a happy medium.
Me i'd go with A7.3 :^)
dave
First, let me say that I've never heard the Atoms, so take my opinions accordingly. I have tried a few single driver full range speakers. My recommendation is to go with a Mark Audio driver. I have a pair of CHP-70s in a Planet ten Audio cabinet and am really surprised at how good it sounds. As I type this, I'm breaking in a pair of Alpair 10.2s (which are on sale at Madisound). They continue to get better and better.I have them in a pair of Jim Griffin's MLTLs. On sale, the driver go for $80 each. I would like to eventually try a multiple driver CHP or CHR set up. What ever way I go, Mark Audio drivers will absolutely be on my short list of drivers. Always!
Some words of caution with the MA drivers: They really need to go through the break-in period as recommended by the manufacturer. They open up as time goes on. And if you like head banging music, MA is not the driver for you, so I've read.
Mike
Some words of caution with the MA drivers: They really need to go through the break-in period as recommended by the manufacturer. They open up as time goes on. And if you like head banging music, MA is not the driver for you, so I've read.
Mike
Not the "ideal" head banging drivers, but the EL70s at least can render Rage Against the Machine, various grunge bands, classic rock, etc. quite well. Maybe not Norwegian Black Metal, but lucky for me I am not a fan of it.
After getting a chance to listen to my FH3-inspired foam core speakers with a non ideal driver, I can only imagine how good a real FH3 will sound with the proper driver. From what I hear, the Alpair 7 with the FH3 cabinet is the combo to beat, and it should cost about $300, maybe a little less depending on type of wood you choose to build yourself. This is what I would do if I were to spend $300 on a new build.
I would love to have the Frugal Horns... but they have a pretty big footprint and I don't think opening in the back as close to the wall as I have to would be very good.
So that leaves the Golden Ratio http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dMar-Ken73-301011.pdf (Front Slotted). Or the Pensil http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil7s3-map.pdf .
Can anyone compare these two?
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dMar-Ken73-301011.pdf
So that leaves the Golden Ratio http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dMar-Ken73-301011.pdf (Front Slotted). Or the Pensil http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil7s3-map.pdf .
Can anyone compare these two?
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dMar-Ken73-301011.pdf
CoolBeaN,
Mar-Ken 7.3 (not the CGR) I have heard - very nice sounding for a bookshelf of that size, clean midrange and tight bass, with bass articulation being a strong point in lieu of sacrificing just a little bit of depth perhaps. Dave's paid plan-set design image very well and they "disappear" nicely the room. My guess is that the free CGR design will not image as well.
Pensil 7.3 I have not heard, but have read listening impressions of other members - it adds a bit more heft at the bottom. Also no need for stands with this one. However you'll have to experiment with the stuffing a bit (fairly simple).
From what I have heard and read, that if your room is not small/medium sized, and you are not looking for lot of bass, then my guess is either one will make you happy.
Mar-Ken 7.3 (not the CGR) I have heard - very nice sounding for a bookshelf of that size, clean midrange and tight bass, with bass articulation being a strong point in lieu of sacrificing just a little bit of depth perhaps. Dave's paid plan-set design image very well and they "disappear" nicely the room. My guess is that the free CGR design will not image as well.
Pensil 7.3 I have not heard, but have read listening impressions of other members - it adds a bit more heft at the bottom. Also no need for stands with this one. However you'll have to experiment with the stuffing a bit (fairly simple).
From what I have heard and read, that if your room is not small/medium sized, and you are not looking for lot of bass, then my guess is either one will make you happy.
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