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Old 17th December 2012, 02:42 AM   #21
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@cal Lol, you are really stoked on those spiral speakers. That thread got so long so fast. Anyway, I've never heard that speaker but I've repaired woofers and loudspeaker for several years and know a thing or two about materials; looking at the info on parts express gives me the suspicion that there is some real engineering going on here.
1. Bamboo fibers have a high average length; it's the third longest conventional fiber behind palm and hemp. The fibers in bamboo, depending on how they are processed, have a very course lignocellolose structure that would create more friction on the microscale giving it good damping properties. The combination of length and coefficient of friction of the fiber surface can yield relatively high strength, light materials.
2. The vented pole phase plug, to me, doesn't really look like the engineer's primary objective was controlling the phase. I'm sure it has some effect there in but it would have a major impact on the electrical part of the system. Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it possible that the plug extends the magnetic field? That wouldn't increase Bl but would give an underhung motor more xmax(given xmax << xlim). Also it seems to be ideally positioned and shaped to help cool the VC.

3. The frame looks optimized for low resonance.

4.The T/S parameters look great.

However... I would strongly consider RK1's comments a being fact. That phase plug appears to be great for dealing with power compression as well as providing more xmax, but looks terrible for phase.

-Matt
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Old 17th December 2012, 09:15 AM   #22
aarvin2 is offline aarvin2  Mauritius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattlong8 View Post
@cal Lol, you are really stoked on those spiral speakers. That thread got so long so fast. Anyway, I've never heard that speaker but I've repaired woofers and loudspeaker for several years and know a thing or two about materials; looking at the info on parts express gives me the suspicion that there is some real engineering going on here.
1. Bamboo fibers have a high average length; it's the third longest conventional fiber behind palm and hemp. The fibers in bamboo, depending on how they are processed, have a very course lignocellolose structure that would create more friction on the microscale giving it good damping properties. The combination of length and coefficient of friction of the fiber surface can yield relatively high strength, light materials.
2. The vented pole phase plug, to me, doesn't really look like the engineer's primary objective was controlling the phase. I'm sure it has some effect there in but it would have a major impact on the electrical part of the system. Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it possible that the plug extends the magnetic field? That wouldn't increase Bl but would give an underhung motor more xmax(given xmax << xlim). Also it seems to be ideally positioned and shaped to help cool the VC.

3. The frame looks optimized for low resonance.

4.The T/S parameters look great.

However... I would strongly consider RK1's comments a being fact. That phase plug appears to be great for dealing with power compression as well as providing more xmax, but looks terrible for phase.

-Matt
Thanks a lot MATT!!! Now that's the type of insights I were looking for

Thanks a lot for your time and shared expertise.

If the phase plug is annoying and useless, I could replace them with a conventional bullet phase plug, do you think this could make a positive difference ?

Thanks again for your time!

Arvin
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:21 AM   #23
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Arvin,
I do appreciate your appreciation =). There are many, more experienced designers than I on this site, but I think there are a few areas here and there where I can hold my own in a discussion. Accurate electroacoustic analysis of phase response based on physical boundaries in the vicinity of a driver is not one of them.

There are two engineering challenges that this driver appears to address well that would merit its higher price: Resonance/Damping and Thermal Compression. The phase plug, which I would be inclined to call a pole piece heat sink, plays a role in both though it's effect would be primarily thermal. I would bet that the engineer has read several papers by Wolfgang Klippel. Thermal compression is an often under-addressed issues in transducer design and for a pro-audio guy like me, it's a critical concern. If I were considering this woofer for a project of mine I would be happy to trade phase linearity for good thermal handling as long as it didn't make crossover alignment too difficult.

Concerning a mod, I would have to see more pictures of the existing plug structure to make a recommendation, but I doubt I could make a dramatic improvement without many iterations if at all. Keep in mind though that I have little experience with phase plugs. What I do know comes from working with Funktion One speakers, reading a few lengthy threads on the topic, and (if I recall correctly)looking over brief sections in books by Beranek, Borwick, and Ballou.

I hope we hear back from RK1. I'm really curious to see those measurements.

-Matt
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:29 AM   #24
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I have listened to this and the bigger 4" and 5" ones in BR enclosures.

They produce plenty of bass for the size and the FR is very benign.
The 4" fills my living-room with a nice full bass and "sparkly" treble.
The downside is beaming. A deep cone profile and a loooong stroke can not be rectified by a "spacy" looking phase-plug, unfortunately.

I'd say they are nice drivers if you can get them at a discount, otherwise too expensive.

Running FR: They can be a bit fiddly to set up (4 and 5 more than 3"). The baffle, placement and room can give very suboptimal results. If you have a dedicated listening-room they can be very good (especially the 3" + sub). the 4" and 5" will have a small-to-tiny sweetspot. If you have a normal living-room (like mine) you could find the staging and perspective "messy". It's like a lamp with a very comfortable light but the coverage is "spotty". It's not harsh-sounding, but rather towards sweet. It's just that the perspective is twitchy and not always consistent imaging suffers badly.

In a 3-way I believe the 4" (W4-1879) could really shine crossed to a tweeter pretty high. I already feel everything is "cleaning up" A LOT by crossing to a sub at 100Hz. This leads me to believe that the long-stroke bass on a deep cone doesn't play well with the HF (phase-wise) on the same diapragm. Also the phase-plug doesn't help dispersion any more than the W4-1337, W4-1320 or the W3-871 (which have conventional plugs) so I believe it's more a gimmick.

Conclusion:
Running FR: YES and NO! Cross to a Sub at 100-150 Hz as a FAST for optimal results (which is sort of a waste considering the huge X-max) or deal with less than optimal dispersion.
In a 2-3 way: consider the bigger siblings.

These are just my impressions. I have heard others had great success with the W3-1878 in TABAQ and Needles. Just know that the 4-5" brothers are impossibly beamy and that the 3 prefers to be offloaded in the bass.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:06 PM   #25
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id love to see the measures showing the plug to be the cause of poor phase. Distortion plots would help also.

All that has occurred here so far is a circular conversation based on a post by a guy who says "dont buy these drivers" without data to show why.

We could guess all year, lets just wait and see if the data emerges and proves the TB to be an audiophile train wreck...
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 17th December 2012 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:30 PM   #26
RK1 is offline RK1
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Originally Posted by DYNABLASTERTUNERS View Post
have you listened to them, or just measured?
I have this model in my system. I also measured this speaker.
Have a nice day
RK
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:02 PM   #27
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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RK
Can you please share your measurements?
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Old 18th December 2012, 01:47 PM   #28
RK1 is offline RK1
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Is very bad. I found several measurements but I have no data on what conditions were performed (are very different). How can I find a moment of time I will do a new measurement.
Have a nice day
RK
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:27 PM   #29
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Well I heard the Bamboo 4 inch drivers for the first time at a hi-fi show last march. I thought they sounded really nice. I wonder how the neodymium vs the newer ceramic ferrite magnets measure side by side? I also wonder how they sound next ot each other? I have heard their suger cane 4 inch fullrange driver that comes in a kit only. It has a very balanced and natural sound. Very open and a little live sounding. I just can't see me dropping $500.00 for kit with 2 4 inch fullrange drivers no matter who makes them? C.R.
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Old 19th December 2012, 05:23 AM   #30
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I have good experience with my Tangbands, and they sound clean to me. I even prefer them to my Alpair 6 gen1. The rise in their last octave isnt as audible as a graph would imply, but also fairly easy to deal with if felt necessary.

Are they good value?
No.

Would I buy again?
Yes.
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 19th December 2012 at 05:26 AM.
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