This is degenerating into a fairly silly discussion, well I guess really it has made it there already.. 
Certainly in the case of most cone speakers with somewhat stiff suspensions it is not the least bit unusual to observe fairly significant changes in TS parameters during a deliberate break in period. A certain very large mid-fi speaker company I spent the better part of a decade working for habitually broke in a sample lot from production for QC purposes after doing a full series of TS parameter measurements on those drivers and then some 24 - 48 hours later after some hard running remeasured them. fs would drop by some 5Hz or more, qts IIRC (and I may not) dropped as well. Some parameters obviously do not change, but the spider and suspension do change during initial use in ways that can be measured. (And I should have mentioned were also audible in blind testing)
Nothing really that controversial here IMO..
Certainly in the case of most cone speakers with somewhat stiff suspensions it is not the least bit unusual to observe fairly significant changes in TS parameters during a deliberate break in period. A certain very large mid-fi speaker company I spent the better part of a decade working for habitually broke in a sample lot from production for QC purposes after doing a full series of TS parameter measurements on those drivers and then some 24 - 48 hours later after some hard running remeasured them. fs would drop by some 5Hz or more, qts IIRC (and I may not) dropped as well. Some parameters obviously do not change, but the spider and suspension do change during initial use in ways that can be measured. (And I should have mentioned were also audible in blind testing)
Nothing really that controversial here IMO..
OK. I get you now, Cal.
If the changes I noticed were in the mids and/or highs, I might be more willing to attribute it to my ears more than the drivers.
However, the dramatic lack of bass... well, lack of bass richness really, tends to lead me to believe it is the drivers. Bass is something we feel as much as hear. Not just my ears, but my body was telling me "Wow, so different!"
I've have had the Christmas tunes pushing through the drivers all day at "louder than she likes" volume, and they are really starting to richen up... a few more days and the differences will be negligible. After that the changes will be much more gradual and subtle...
If the changes I noticed were in the mids and/or highs, I might be more willing to attribute it to my ears more than the drivers.
However, the dramatic lack of bass... well, lack of bass richness really, tends to lead me to believe it is the drivers. Bass is something we feel as much as hear. Not just my ears, but my body was telling me "Wow, so different!"
I've have had the Christmas tunes pushing through the drivers all day at "louder than she likes" volume, and they are really starting to richen up... a few more days and the differences will be negligible. After that the changes will be much more gradual and subtle...
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One well known spider designer has said that some of his stuff is designed to require up to 1500 hrs before they reach full operating condition.
dave
I don't have them handy, but I've measured TS parameters of woofers right out of the box from madisound, and after a weekend on a function generator and the Fs (and thus Vas) does drop. I may be able to dig up measurements, but anybody who has built their own speakers in a non-haphazard way should have measured their drivers and probably has seen this phenomena as well.
What you don't hear talked about much is how drivers change over time. I had four Vifa premium line 7" midbass units who's Fs nearly doubled over 15 years. Yet another reason to prefer electrostats.
As others have said, if you don't have measurements, you don't have anything. Your ears are not useful for design.
Sheldon
What you don't hear talked about much is how drivers change over time. I had four Vifa premium line 7" midbass units who's Fs nearly doubled over 15 years. Yet another reason to prefer electrostats.
As others have said, if you don't have measurements, you don't have anything. Your ears are not useful for design.
Sheldon
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Nobody's disagreeing with that.
If you then sat those drivers on a shelf for a week or two and remeasured them cold, how different would they be from the original cold measurements?
Here they are:
All fine and dandy, but really just an nice story. Nothing wrong with that. But don't expect to say "move along" and have the naysayers do so. Why should they?
It's always nice to have evidence. It should not be that hard to provide, really. It would be nice if someone would.
Nana Mouskouri Christmas at 35+ watts. Taking me back to 1978... (I was 8).
Seems like I have brought these drivers around in pretty short order.
Bass knob set to flat, sub crossover dialed back to around 60hz, and sub volume dialed down to just above where it was before the driver swap.
The "almost abuse" has paid off.
Seems like I have brought these drivers around in pretty short order.
Bass knob set to flat, sub crossover dialed back to around 60hz, and sub volume dialed down to just above where it was before the driver swap.
The "almost abuse" has paid off.
Here they are:
All fine and dandy, but really just an nice story. Nothing wrong with that. But don't expect to say "move along" and have the naysayers do so. Why should they?
It's always nice to have evidence. It should not be that hard to provide, really. It would be nice if someone would.
I have neither the equipment, the knowledge, nor the desire.
I apologize for my lack in all areas.
we can close this thread....the OP has made his report, there is nothing more to discuss....I offer this chance to prove or disprove the break in debate. I have 2 pairs of eminence beta 12 LTAs. I Bought all 4 drivers at once, and have played one pair for many hours (read thousands), and the second pair are almost unused. I have neither the skill or equipment to measure them but if someone local does I offer them up for experimentation....
Evan
Ps.. I would be very surprised if they measured the same.
Evan
Ps.. I would be very surprised if they measured the same.
Since new master calibration standards were often selected from these lots and then carefully remeasured prior to storage for the next yearly calibration cycle I can answer that question with confidence. The drivers once broken in remained broken in even with extremely long rests if properly stored, any that changed significantly were chucked after the test system was carefully rechecked for accuracy and new calibration standards chosen.
These standards were used as controls for a bunch of secondary standards used in production test fixturing, etc.
I have experience break in with every driver I have ever had, any headphone.
break in is real, I cant believe some experience user are denying it, am I crazy? I mean with headphones its so apparent and with speakers also.
I mean my alpair 12 p sounded like a can of soup when I received them, even my GF said woops, a day later, my girld friend and I was like wow, these sounds good.
I have just used a new driver, audax pr 170 and the first hour was quite bad sounding
whatever, but this break in thing is real,
break in is real, I cant believe some experience user are denying it, am I crazy? I mean with headphones its so apparent and with speakers also.
I mean my alpair 12 p sounded like a can of soup when I received them, even my GF said woops, a day later, my girld friend and I was like wow, these sounds good.
I have just used a new driver, audax pr 170 and the first hour was quite bad sounding
whatever, but this break in thing is real,
Sure, the spider should loosen up over time, and I've noticed a very slight difference, but then again I don't deal with high efficiency drivers which would be more effected I'm sure.
Although I don't see how break-in would effect higher frequencies.
Cal is right. The "I trust my senses" argument doesn't hold water. Senses adapt/calibrate a scary amount to given circumstances.
The classic example is sitting in a room with coloured light and then stepping out into daylight. Suddenly everything will seem to be of the opposite hue of the light you were just in.
Same with sound. If you are used to heavy, exaggerated bass and separated, hot highs then listening to a FR will be underwhelming.
The amount of compensation the brain has to perform uses energy though, that's why FR can seem so soothing and pleasent after a while, because the brain has to do less work.
Break-in is real to some extent, If not for any other reason then that a driver is a mechanical system that will experience wear and softening of materials with use, settling after some time in a state that will be quite stable for years and years.
But I do not believe in radical changes over long stretches of time.
The classic example is sitting in a room with coloured light and then stepping out into daylight. Suddenly everything will seem to be of the opposite hue of the light you were just in.
Same with sound. If you are used to heavy, exaggerated bass and separated, hot highs then listening to a FR will be underwhelming.
The amount of compensation the brain has to perform uses energy though, that's why FR can seem so soothing and pleasent after a while, because the brain has to do less work.
Break-in is real to some extent, If not for any other reason then that a driver is a mechanical system that will experience wear and softening of materials with use, settling after some time in a state that will be quite stable for years and years.
But I do not believe in radical changes over long stretches of time.
Only read the first page of this thread, but I strongly believe in break-in. I remember hearing my EL70 for the first time. To be honest they sounded like ****. Total crap. I was really disappointed until I remembered they might need some break-in time. I endured many hours of crappy sound but they just got better and better and after several hundred hours it sounds good, very good.
I believe it has to do with the suspension BREAKING IN SUBWOOFERS... WHY... a sneak peek at the new toys..mp4 - YouTube
I believe it has to do with the suspension BREAKING IN SUBWOOFERS... WHY... a sneak peek at the new toys..mp4 - YouTube
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