Hello all.
I am brand new to DIY HiFi (or true HiFi for that matter), but poses the necessary skills to do the work and make it look good
My system at this time is nothing I would list here. Currently all my HiFi listening is done through headphones (SONY MDR-7509HD) from a PC (Creative SB X-Fi sound card), or rockboxed Sansa fuze using .flac/CD source or better. No mp3 here (well maybe some at 320kbps EAC'ed).
I have been reading anything I can get my hands on for the last 2 weeks, and ended up with a headache. Hoping that someone can shine a light here and nudge me along.
Here are the criteria in no particular order at this point:
- fullrange obviously hoping for no crossover.
- cabinet size hopefully on the order of Dallas II.
- flexibility as I will move few times in next couple of years and placement will most likely be not the best.
- I listen to a very varied music. classical, jazz, electronic, rock, indie, hip hop etc. better the system the more variations.
Here is what I think I want:
- Fostex 206en (EnABLE them) seems to me that no replacement for displacement (car reference) 8 inch easier to do bass. No?
- BB ply or something close for construction
- powered by lm1875 (built by me soon)
- TL-BLH hybrid enclosure of some kind - lost here the most
Here is what I think I know:
- Dallas II - not a true BLH, (mouth size) not accounted for TL?
- MDF, chipboard, etc bad for medium-large cabs
- I don't know enough and suck at math (I have BFA)
Well thanks for reading...
I am brand new to DIY HiFi (or true HiFi for that matter), but poses the necessary skills to do the work and make it look good
My system at this time is nothing I would list here. Currently all my HiFi listening is done through headphones (SONY MDR-7509HD) from a PC (Creative SB X-Fi sound card), or rockboxed Sansa fuze using .flac/CD source or better. No mp3 here (well maybe some at 320kbps EAC'ed).
I have been reading anything I can get my hands on for the last 2 weeks, and ended up with a headache. Hoping that someone can shine a light here and nudge me along.
Here are the criteria in no particular order at this point:
- fullrange obviously hoping for no crossover.
- cabinet size hopefully on the order of Dallas II.
- flexibility as I will move few times in next couple of years and placement will most likely be not the best.
- I listen to a very varied music. classical, jazz, electronic, rock, indie, hip hop etc. better the system the more variations.
Here is what I think I want:
- Fostex 206en (EnABLE them) seems to me that no replacement for displacement (car reference) 8 inch easier to do bass. No?
- BB ply or something close for construction
- powered by lm1875 (built by me soon)
- TL-BLH hybrid enclosure of some kind - lost here the most
Here is what I think I know:
- Dallas II - not a true BLH, (mouth size) not accounted for TL?
- MDF, chipboard, etc bad for medium-large cabs
- I don't know enough and suck at math (I have BFA
)Well thanks for reading...
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Vitamin C,
If you are not decided on going Fostex only, I would suggest you also take a look at the Mark Audio Alpair 12P (6.5") and the Alpair 10.2 (5.5") in Pensil boxes.
I have experience with the Alp 12 metal (previous gen) in Pensil 12 cabinets and they handle jazz, new age instrumentals, pop, electronica, and classical well. Metal is ok but lot of the recordings are on the thin side which will probably sound fuller on a less revealing system. The Pensil 12 do a great job with HT too, specially with a powerful amp.
I have a pair of Alp 12P breaking in and it will be a while before I get them in boxes - so cannot comment first hand on the overall performance of the drivers - however folks who have heard them, like them. You can look up diyAudio memeber Craigtone's build of a Pensil 12P and his listening imporessions.
Folks who have built the Pensil 10.2 floorstander, Bob Brines MLTL or other bookshelf designs with the Alpair 10.2 are mostly a happy lot too. Though a 5.5" driver, the Alp 10.2 has a reputation of having very good bass response.
The Mark Audio Alpair drivers though having smaller cones size vs something like a Fostex FE206E do have more excursion and can reproduce impressive bass in much smaller cabs vs the Fostex, which is primarily designed to be used in BLH type cabinets like the Dallas. The Pensil cabinets are much smaller and definitely will have higher WAF, plus movement, placement, and construction is easier, much easier.
For amps, take a look at the Class D amps too.
Have fun!
p.s. Look up a few reviews of the Asus Xonar cards when you have time. Even the budget ones are reputed to be pretty good for audio.
If you are not decided on going Fostex only, I would suggest you also take a look at the Mark Audio Alpair 12P (6.5") and the Alpair 10.2 (5.5") in Pensil boxes.
I have experience with the Alp 12 metal (previous gen) in Pensil 12 cabinets and they handle jazz, new age instrumentals, pop, electronica, and classical well. Metal is ok but lot of the recordings are on the thin side which will probably sound fuller on a less revealing system. The Pensil 12 do a great job with HT too, specially with a powerful amp.
I have a pair of Alp 12P breaking in and it will be a while before I get them in boxes - so cannot comment first hand on the overall performance of the drivers - however folks who have heard them, like them. You can look up diyAudio memeber Craigtone's build of a Pensil 12P and his listening imporessions.
Folks who have built the Pensil 10.2 floorstander, Bob Brines MLTL or other bookshelf designs with the Alpair 10.2 are mostly a happy lot too. Though a 5.5" driver, the Alp 10.2 has a reputation of having very good bass response.
The Mark Audio Alpair drivers though having smaller cones size vs something like a Fostex FE206E do have more excursion and can reproduce impressive bass in much smaller cabs vs the Fostex, which is primarily designed to be used in BLH type cabinets like the Dallas. The Pensil cabinets are much smaller and definitely will have higher WAF, plus movement, placement, and construction is easier, much easier.
For amps, take a look at the Class D amps too.
Have fun!
p.s. Look up a few reviews of the Asus Xonar cards when you have time. Even the budget ones are reputed to be pretty good for audio.
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I endorse zman01's recommendation of A12P. The detail level, even at low volume and rich sound is miles ahead of the FE206En.
The A12P in the Superpensil should suit many tastes and is in fact capable of true high end reproduction.
The 206 series is very popular, but then until a few years ago it didn't have that much competition in its price class. Personally I find that you can easily find better these days.
For a good bass (and good overall tonality as well) which is important for your wide musical choices, also investigate the FF225WK, but you'll need to add a tweeter on top. Still I also prefer it over the FE206En.
There are other interesting choices like the Tangband 8" models but I haven't heard them.
The A12P in the Superpensil should suit many tastes and is in fact capable of true high end reproduction.
The 206 series is very popular, but then until a few years ago it didn't have that much competition in its price class. Personally I find that you can easily find better these days.
For a good bass (and good overall tonality as well) which is important for your wide musical choices, also investigate the FF225WK, but you'll need to add a tweeter on top. Still I also prefer it over the FE206En.
There are other interesting choices like the Tangband 8" models but I haven't heard them.
A few thoughts:
second Zia's notes on both the larger Fostex drivers, as well as the A10.2 - the "bass monster" of the Mark Audio line, particularly in a full size MLTL such as Brines' enclosure or Pensil, or the more ambitious Silbury . I've built / heard at least one of several sizes of the above design styles with a range of drivers, and if domestic acceptance factor is at all significant an MLTL type is probably the safest bet.
From my listening to date, the 12P likes a larger enclosure than the 10.2 to deliver its full measure of magic.
yes to BB or other high quality multi-ply plywood, or even decent particle board over MDF for sonics
a well executed analog chip or digital amp (power supply is king) can be very satisfying
nobody sucks at higher math more than I, but thanks to the design acumen of folks like Dave, Scott and Bob, anyone who can cut wood and keep their fingers intact can create a great sound speaker system for very low cost
second Zia's notes on both the larger Fostex drivers, as well as the A10.2 - the "bass monster"
of the Mark Audio line, particularly in a full size MLTL such as Brines' enclosure or Pensil, or the more ambitious Silbury . I've built / heard at least one of several sizes of the above design styles with a range of drivers, and if domestic acceptance factor is at all significant an MLTL type is probably the safest bet. From my listening to date, the 12P likes a larger enclosure than the 10.2 to deliver its full measure of magic.
yes to BB or other high quality multi-ply plywood, or even decent particle board over MDF for sonics
a well executed analog chip or digital amp (power supply is king) can be very satisfying
nobody sucks at higher math more than I, but thanks to the design acumen of folks like Dave, Scott and Bob, anyone who can cut wood and keep their fingers intact can create a great sound speaker system for very low cost
Man what a great community!!!
Thanks guys. I will read all I can about the 12P. I am a product designer by education, and an apprentice at a furniture woodshop collective by trait. I am quite capable of very ambitious designs.
Silbury, interesting, I have not come across that one yet. Hmmm lets read about that too.
SuperPensil, I read that it has less bass than Pensil, is that subjective? (can of worms open) I guess I mean doesn't go as low.
I will be here daily so get used to lots of questions (promise i will search first )
Domestic front I am working on as we speak. You give some, and you take some. Negotiations are a key. Plus, I think I can make most of them look real nice. BIB is out of the question ha ha.
Thanks guys. I will read all I can about the 12P. I am a product designer by education, and an apprentice at a furniture woodshop collective by trait. I am quite capable of very ambitious designs.
Silbury, interesting, I have not come across that one yet. Hmmm lets read about that too.
SuperPensil, I read that it has less bass than Pensil, is that subjective? (can of worms open) I guess I mean doesn't go as low.
I will be here daily so get used to lots of questions (promise i will search first
)Domestic front I am working on as we speak. You give some, and you take some. Negotiations are a key
. Plus, I think I can make most of them look real nice. BIB is out of the question ha ha.Man what a great community!!!
Thanks guys. I will read all I can about the 12P. I am a product designer by education, and an apprentice at a furniture woodshop collective by trait. I am quite capable of very ambitious designs.
Silbury, interesting, I have not come across that one yet. Hmmm lets read about that too.
SuperPensil, I read that it has less bass than Pensil, is that subjective? (can of worms open) I guess I mean doesn't go as low.
I will be here daily so get used to lots of questions (promise i will search first
Domestic front I am working on as we speak. You give some, and you take some. Negotiations are a key
Silbury is part of the this design family:
Woden Design | Mark Audio
There are also variants of these enclosures for similarly sized Fostex drivers ( V-bomber series)
I've heard the Maeshowe / Valiant with MA A7.3 / Fostex FE126En, and Victor with Fostex FE166En, and FE166ESR - all are great performers, with slightly different flavors - none are tiny (shortest comes in at 60") - but they can be made pretty.
Hi,
FWIW convincing yourself you want an FR is not a good idea IMHO.
I've nothing against them, as an aquired taste, but they wouldn't be
my first foray into genuine hifi, your only going to confuse yourself.
Read the FAQ's here :
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
A very good first speaker to build for a gain clone is :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga
IMO a great attempt at real high quality on a budget.
Make a good job of them, and they will stand as a great reference
for future speaker builds, of any sort. A high quality 6.5"/1" two
way making a decent attempt at real bass extension really is
where proper hi fi for music starts without a subwoofer.
YMMV, but IMO don't be seduced by nebulous theory of FR's.
rgds, sreten.
Also FWIW my favourite budget hifi amplifier is a used Pioneer
A300X, which can go for silly money, as you can see here :
Pioneer A300X Integrated Amplifier with phono inputs | eBay
You couldn't hope to build anything remotely as good for $100.
Again for hifi, a very good reference point for future builds.
Top the lot off with a with a nice used Marantz SE CD player for
about $50, or a nice vinyl source which will run to $300 plus.
FWIW convincing yourself you want an FR is not a good idea IMHO.
I've nothing against them, as an aquired taste, but they wouldn't be
my first foray into genuine hifi, your only going to confuse yourself.
Read the FAQ's here :
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
A very good first speaker to build for a gain clone is :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga
IMO a great attempt at real high quality on a budget.
Make a good job of them, and they will stand as a great reference
for future speaker builds, of any sort. A high quality 6.5"/1" two
way making a decent attempt at real bass extension really is
where proper hi fi for music starts without a subwoofer.
YMMV, but IMO don't be seduced by nebulous theory of FR's.
rgds, sreten.
Also FWIW my favourite budget hifi amplifier is a used Pioneer
A300X, which can go for silly money, as you can see here :
Pioneer A300X Integrated Amplifier with phono inputs | eBay
You couldn't hope to build anything remotely as good for $100.
Again for hifi, a very good reference point for future builds.
Top the lot off with a with a nice used Marantz SE CD player for
about $50, or a nice vinyl source which will run to $300 plus.
Like a MakerSpace?
Depends what driver/drivers you are talking about, and what your definition of bass is. Alpair 12p gives up a little low bass extension in comparison to A10.2 and A7.3 in the Pensil, but for some music, you might not notice.
jeff
Jeff,
A10.2 is understandable, but A12P in Pensil has less bass extension than A7.3? Despite have much lower Fs, higher xmax, bigger cone?
Purely subjective, I have no measurements to back up my claim.
Don't ask me how the 7.3's dig so deep. Same for the EL70's, with an Fs of 64Hz, how do they go so deep?jeff
Hmmm... good question.... the EL70 - well those are bass monsters in the P10 Mar-Kel box , and the Alp 7.3 is no slouch - I haven't heard them in Pensils though.
One thing I found - the amp matters and watts matter when it comes to LF performance. Sometimes with low watt tube gear, the dynamics and weight are less perceptible even at similar SPL. For example, with my A12 metal with a 5 watt SEP, in a movie scene the sound of a gong wasn't coming out that impressive; just out of curiosity we switched to a Hypex UcD - wow - so much more impact and texture.
Well A12P is a different driver altogether and these discussions can be endless.
, and the Alp 7.3 is no slouch - I haven't heard them in Pensils though.One thing I found - the amp matters and watts matter when it comes to LF performance. Sometimes with low watt tube gear, the dynamics and weight are less perceptible even at similar SPL. For example, with my A12 metal with a 5 watt SEP, in a movie scene the sound of a gong wasn't coming out that impressive; just out of curiosity we switched to a Hypex UcD - wow - so much more impact and texture.
Well A12P is a different driver altogether and these discussions can be endless.
Some low watt OPT's start rolling off as high as 100Hz.
Well A12P is a different driver altogether and these discussions can be endless.
It's a wonderful driver! You'll get no argument from me.
jeff
Yeah better half does not like the idea of something as tall as me in the house so silbury is a BIB and out, too bad.
Yikes, I appreciate your advice. but really? does anyone else here agree? I am the guy that after all drives a 91 VW Corrado thinking its the best vw ever made, even if it brakes often
. As far as amps go is that true as well?Really I hope your post is not biting me in the *** a month down the line after I build my ish.
actually check it out. home | dock6
As far as A10.2 vs P12.2 I like very natural bass. I love how flat my headphones are. Just true to the source.
Hmmm... good question.... the EL70 - well those are bass monsters in the P10 Mar-Kel box
One thing I found - the amp matters and watts matter when it comes to LF performance. Sometimes with low watt tube gear, the dynamics and weight are less perceptible even at similar SPL. For example, with my A12 metal with a 5 watt SEP, in a movie scene the sound of a gong wasn't coming out that impressive; just out of curiosity we switched to a Hypex UcD - wow - so much more impact and texture.
Well A12P is a different driver altogether and these discussions can be endless.
Would I be pushing enough oomph with lm1875t with strong power supply to push all the available bass out of the 12.2P? Is sreten right when he says i will not be able to make an amp that sounds as good as the Pioneer A300X for less than $100? I have read that amp does make a difference in bass reproduction on these 12.2P in Pensils. I am still not sure what negative effects SuperPensil over just the Pensil cab.
Nope!
They are easy to drive and don't require a lot of power. 20 watts is plenty for an average size room.
Maybe, but who cares.
Weight.
jeff
Sreten is quite knowledgable, has a lot of experience, but i don't think he has grooked the harm that having an XO in the critical band has to the cohesion of the music -- the "magic" that a good FR brings to the table. I have nothing against 2-ways, but fell that id the XO isn't on the order of 400 Hz or less, then you lose that "magic" character that has had many of us become FR afficianados abandoning the typical multi-way loudspeaker. I believe the best of both worlds is a small FR + helper woofers. I am a big fan of the smaller FRs, feeling that the 5-4.5" range is the sweet spot for a single driver speaker.
With the LM1875 you will have more than enuff power to look at the less efficient drivers (such as the Mark Audios & Fostex FFx5wk). It should be noted that these chip amps shine their best when the imdeance they are driving is benign -- typical of a FR speaker.
The FExx6 series has been around for a long time and have had a long time to establish themselves. They are the goto driver when the efficiency is needed to match your <5W SE amp (tubes or SS), but there are many much newer driver families than exchange efficiency for greater smoothness and deeper bass in more reasonable size boxes.
Zia, A7.3 sims 10 Hz lower in 9 litre than A12.2p in 16 litre miniOnken,
A10.2 is an ideal compromise between bass and the DDR of the A7.3.
dave
Hi,
All I can say is the FR forum is biased, and not the best place IMO for
a newbie being "seduced" by the wonders of FR's without really any
real understanding of their limitations that go with one advantage.
"Grooked" seems to be a meaningless word, so it could mean anything.
The "all crossovers are evil" argument only holds water in the FR forum.
As does FR's have a "magic" nothing else can provide, perhaps, but the
FR forum glosses over the loads of inherent faults / limitations of FR's.
I stand by what I said. A first build should be a very high value hifi speaker,
that is not too complicated, based on a thoroughly competent design, that
is guaranteed to provide a good result, and a very good reference standard.
I've nothing against FR's, FAST's and the like as long as you understand
exactly what you are getting and not getting into, and can tweak to fix.
Reality does bite. Imagination does get carried away.
rgds, sreten.
The VW Corrado is a Golf GTI mk2 with knobs on. Bang for buck though
the original Golf GTI mk1 for some is still the best. First build : B for B.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=219617
http://www.zaphaudio.com
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200909021...esigningXO.htm
http://www.rjbaudio.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200909022...ve99/Spkrbldg/
http://speakerdesignworks.com/
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/david/david.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html
http://www.quarter-wave.com/
http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html
http://www.frugal-horn.com/
http://www.2pi-online.de/
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.musicanddesign.com/
Great free SPICE Emulator : http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fold...t/tina-ti.html
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Of course it is biased, just as the multiway & exotic forums are biased and why there are separate forums.
It is a very meaningful word, if you are widely enuff read to have encounterd it.
Actually that is a paraphrase of something Earl Geddes said -- i can't recall ever seeing him here on the FR forum.
Sounds like you are describing a competent FR build to me. Really hard to beat a good FR in a proven box for value for the dollar when you are talking say <$350 for drivers, and certainly the case for <$100 (just ask anyone living with EL70 for instance)
I've nothing against multi-ways as long as you understand
exactly what you are getting and not getting into
Given how bad speakers are in general (i estimate the best are 10-20% of what is possible), it is very possible to make 2 perfectly valid speakers that sound completely different because of the different set of compromises taken.
OP posted in the FR forum, obviously has done some research, so i will assume that he has at least the basics on the compromises involved with choosng a single FR driver.
dave
Value for the dollar.
Of interest here, is a shoot-out between Overnite Sensation & the mMar-Ken70 2 diyFESTs ago.... the number of people voting with their dollars cleaning Bob out of the EL70 he brought (5-8 pr?). EL70 <90/pr + transport. OS, $170 landed in Canada.
Even a tarted up pair of EL70eN (Sreten has a strong opinion on EnABL too) $160/pr (granted, once transport etc paid, more than the OS kit --but way less complex).
dave
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