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Old 27th November 2012, 02:26 AM   #11
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Yeah CLS, I hear what you are saying about comb filtering regarding the classic stereo set up. That's the main reason that I believe so strongly in ambiophonics!
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Old 27th November 2012, 07:24 PM   #12
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by CLS View Post
See it this way, in an ordanary stereo system, 2 tweeters are separated by more than 2 meters in most cases. And they are playing the same signal in a mono (or almost mono) situation, which is very commonly seen in any central images - pop vocal, solo instrument... etc. So, how about that? Is anyone worrying about comb filtering here?

Yes, exactly ! This I have been wondering all along Stereo triangle with 2 speakers produces the worst kind of combs: very simple structured and defined patterns and deep notches.

Better to use non-combing means of reproduction i.e. cross talk cancelling, or by fading out the perception by building in some stealth


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Old 27th November 2012, 07:37 PM   #13
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Yes, exactly ! This I have been wondering all along Stereo triangle with 2 speakers produces the worst kind of combs: very simple structured and defined patterns and deep notches.

Better to use non-combing means of reproduction i.e. cross talk cancelling, or by fading out the perception by building in some stealth


- Elias

I think it's mostly a "non-starter". The engineer is using eq. to get the desired effect and doing so on a stereo loudspeaker pair with the very same combing.

Now if it's a binaural recording then that's a different matter - it needs low cross-talk.

Obviously if you want really good separation then go with high isolation headphones, but then you'll be stuck with "in the head" imaging (again, unless binaural). (..which is why several headphone amp makers add-in some form of "cross-feed" - to get rid of the "in the head" sound.)
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Old 27th November 2012, 07:45 PM   #14
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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I think it's mostly a "non-starter".
I know a diesel car can be a "non-starter" in Finland when it's -40 C in the morning and you left your car on the yard over night
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Old 27th November 2012, 08:13 PM   #15
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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I know a diesel car can be a "non-starter" in Finland when it's -40 C in the morning and you left your car on the yard over night
That's just front-yard brick.
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Old 27th November 2012, 08:41 PM   #16
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I think it's mostly a "non-starter". The engineer is using eq. to get the desired effect and doing so on a stereo loudspeaker pair with the very same combing.

Now if it's a binaural recording then that's a different matter - it needs low cross-talk.

Obviously if you want really good separation then go with high isolation headphones, but then you'll be stuck with "in the head" imaging (again, unless binaural). (..which is why several headphone amp makers add-in some form of "cross-feed" - to get rid of the "in the head" sound.)
Here we go again
My beliefs are that if the sound engineer is eq'ing for a stereo pair than why the exaggerated bass and mid-bass when both speakers are playing in mono.
When I use the RACE algorithm, bass and mid-bass are equal in amplitude across the soundstage, as it is with headphones.
Also, if they even eq for combing higher frequencies, they still can't do anything about ITD which is the major problem because it causes smearing and makes the center image 6ft wide.
Also, if they are eq'ing for HF combing....what about cars, where the listener is way out of the sweet spot. Or TV speakers where most listeners are also way out of the sweet spot.
In fact, most listeners of an audiophile set up will be off axis, They have to be at audio shows.
Given all these examples, I can't believe that sound engineers would eq for HRTF for the reason of solely sweet spot critical listening.
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Old 27th November 2012, 08:57 PM   #17
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I think the exaggerated bass is due to the lower level in vocal volume perceived with the stereo pair (without race). I noticed this going from 1 speaker to 2, then playing with the ambio center wall divider. 1 speaker or (2 speakers with a divider) seemed to have 3db if not more voice volume.

I think recording studios do a better job scattering side reflections (when listening) than what we normally hear in a house (some to none).

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Old 27th November 2012, 09:14 PM   #18
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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I think the exaggerated bass is due to the lower level in vocal volume perceived with the stereo pair (without race).
I think this is due to stereo triangle comb filtering generates attenuation inside each critical bandwidth. Since stereo speakers are far apart, interference notch density can be high so there are multible notches inside each band, thus overall loudness level gets lower.

If cross talk is removed, no attenuation occurs at any bandwidth.


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Old 27th November 2012, 11:12 PM   #19
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Here we go again
My beliefs are that if the sound engineer is eq'ing for a stereo pair

..than why the exaggerated bass and mid-bass when both speakers are playing in mono.


When I use the RACE algorithm, bass and mid-bass are equal in amplitude across the soundstage, as it is with headphones.
Also, if they even eq for combing higher frequencies, they still can't do anything about ITD which is the major problem because it causes smearing and makes the center image 6ft wide.
Also, if they are eq'ing for HF combing....what about cars, where the listener is way out of the sweet spot. Or TV speakers where most listeners are also way out of the sweet spot.
In fact, most listeners of an audiophile set up will be off axis, They have to be at audio shows.
Given all these examples, I can't believe that sound engineers would eq for HRTF for the reason of solely sweet spot critical listening.


That's what a "non-starter" references.

You aren't supposed to play them both in MONO - the engineer designed it for STEREO.


Still, I'll grant you that the midbass is generally "wrong" with stereo as well. It's made worse with near-time contralateral reflections which "widen" images. (..its not just walls either, but can also be the opposing speaker.)
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Old 27th November 2012, 11:42 PM   #20
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Oh, ok. You were saying don't start this discussion haha.
When I say mono, I mean when both stereo speakers play the same bass and mid-bass frequencies.
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