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Old 7th November 2012, 02:44 PM   #21
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Hoffmann's Iron Law. Just so Squeak understands my philosophy, If I can't ship it by FedEx Ground, It's too big.

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Old 7th November 2012, 02:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeak View Post
Is that a trick question? :-)
No. I've been 'battling'/at odds with this subject of defining the various types of speaker categories for as long as I've been on the various audio BBs, web forums and it has nothing to do with my personal listening preferences, which varies somewhat with the needs of the app, same as most folks.

This thread is about coming up with some more accurate categorical definitions, which should be predicated on technical properties, not about mine or anyone else's personal listening preferences and/or whether they meet the needs of one's particular app.

It's up to the gentle reader to choose which definitive category of speaker design best meets the needs of their app, not mine or anyone else's unless they ask for the forum collective's opinions.

This is the problem with these types of threads in particular, folks won't stay on topic; just browse a wire/cable trying to find anything of technical value to help figure out what is required to meet the needs of one's app.

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Old 7th November 2012, 03:36 PM   #23
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Think of a "Fullrange" speaker in the same light as an "All Season" tire or "one size fits all" and you can lay the semantics to rest and be satisfied with the connotation. Works for me.
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Old 7th November 2012, 04:14 PM   #24
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon View Post
Think of a "Fullrange" speaker in the same light as an "All Season" tire or "one size fits all" and you can lay the semantics to rest and be satisfied with the connotation. Works for me.
I don't think that's an apt analogy, at least not for me.
A better one would be something like a really good bike. Not the fastest or most powerful vehicle. But under many everyday circumstances can be a better form of transport than a car (at least where I'm from ;-).
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Old 7th November 2012, 06:35 PM   #25
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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Forgot to add the very important: But hopeless in other circumstances. :-)
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:08 AM   #26
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Default My purpose for this thread. (a little long)

Guys,

I was not asking for myself, although I do appreciate all the contributions. I thought that a quick post suggesting what one might call fullrange , as in "single fullrange driver" be explained simply for others (obviously "newbs") so that tons of questions regarding these types of drivers would be asked within the "fullrange" sub-forum, rather than having multi-way questions occur. I appreciate how some like the idea of "assisted" designs (whether a sub-woofer assisted FR driver such as the FAST systems, or a tweeter assisted FR or a tweeter and Sub-assisted FR), and have several types to listen to.

Mr. Brines: I understand that a truly fullrange driver may not be a reality, but I've got a few pairs here that are "almost" FR, and certainly don't leave me wanting in any way.

Cal: As usual, succinct and to the point, you speaker dork you .

Squeak: Quite a similar analogy using a different example than Cal's.

GM: Good points. I thought this might be easy, but of course everybody has an opinion and it really comes down to semantics (which I don't think it should). My idea was to provide some sort of "guide" for the newb member to start at regarding the various types of drivers/loudspeakers, etc. An OB need not be FR based, but many are. It can be MW based.(I know you didn't suggest this)

Hentai:Yup I think horns (based on size, etc) can be the closest to a FR possible.

picoswallspeaker:
Quote:
I like WOOFER with a helper FR
IG81:
Quote:
In my book, a driver that I call fullrange can play at least 2 decades without any major flaw and do so at levels satisfying for the intended use. Most modern drivers, as well as many vintage ones, so dubbed can do even better, clever enclosure design not withstanding. Heck, I own mid-bass drivers that come close to this. If really limited to two useful decades, something like 50Hz-5khz or 200Hz-20kHz, I can see the need for a helper woofer or tweeter, but generally end-up prefering a driver on its own.
This is what mean by the use of a "helper", whether it be a tweeter, or a woofer.

ultrakaz:
Quote:
Perhaps a holy grail or oxymoron.
But always worth the effort in my humble experience.

phivates:
Quote:
FR covers what's essential to understanding the material. Whether music or just speech, 100 to 10k Hz is sufficient, and any decent fr driver gets close enough. I want and appreciate more yet the fact remains that my musical education has been based on simple single speakers in cars or radios, or the real music from a piano or choir or any other actual musical experience. JMO once again.
My current basement system is a 6.5 whizzer cone Matsu in a borrowed Teac box. It never fails to present a voice or a hall honestly. It does tell me when a record is compiled from multiple sources time wise. Ambiance is hard to fake.
A pretty reasonable stance, I think.

P10:
Quote:
Quad 57s are 2-way
Yup

larryldspkr:
Quote:
Single driver handling the FULL RANGE!
I guess this is the whole point.

I know others have commented:
  • tvrgeek- are you really a TVR geek? If yes, pretty cool;
  • adason;
  • Bare;

Melo theory:
Quote:
I know you are not asking what a FR loudspeaker is. Are you asking others opinions on this? Are you moderating which threads go where?
I'm not a moderator but think if this and other basic questions could be answered or nomenclature defined, then the over-all experience of the members (particularly "newbs") would be enhanced. Individual threads could be more directed to an OP's question or plead for help. All in the name of reduced confusion. And if an agreed upon definition could be adopted (whether one agrees completely with the adopted definition or not) , wouldn't this be helpful?

Semantic arguments can go on forever. This was intended as a basis for adopting a definition. Multi-way speakers are another, as well as "full-frequency" (multi-way) speakers.

Any that know me know that I don't (intend) to stir things up in any way. I really did think this would be an area of consensus.
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Old 8th November 2012, 01:43 PM   #27
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It would be simpler to call this the single driver forum. "Fullrange" is a bit foolish since everyone is striving for a design that satisfies their personal definition of fullrange.

I think some folks have really missed the essence of what Bob and GM were saying. Everyone that had some response to Bob's / GM's posts had a "for my needs / preferences / etc" in their reponse.
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Old 8th November 2012, 02:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbike1 View Post
It would be simpler to call this the single driver forum.
Agreed, although to me, broadband (or wide-band) would be even better.
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:46 PM   #29
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A full-range is a very extended midrange that can be enjoyed and connect you emotionally to the music used all by itself.

With some hitting a full 9-octaves support (usually on the bottom) may only be needed for enabling loud, more dyanmics, larger scale,

With growing support that separate multiple woofers are required to get smooth room response in the bass, the goal for the upper ranges becomes 8 octaves -- even less if you feel abreviated, age-related hearing means less top required.

dave
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:19 PM   #30
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Default so here goes: perhaps an acceptable definition?

All: thanks for the contributions to this somewhat meaningless and accelerating thread that need not be (at least to this point). In response to last few posts the following:
  • fastbike1:
    Quote:
    It would be simpler to call this the single driver forum. "Fullrange" is a bit foolish since everyone is striving for a design that satisfies their personal definition of fullrange. I think some folks have really missed the essence of what Bob and GM were saying. Everyone that had some response to Bob's / GM's posts had a "for my needs / preferences / etc" in their reponse.
    The simpler the better, however I can see some suggesting that this might be ambiguous based on assisted or non-assisted types.
  • rjbond3rd:
    Quote:
    Agreed, although to me, broadband (or wide-band) would be even better.
    Perhaps...
  • planet10:
    Quote:
    A full-range is a very extended midrange that can be enjoyed and connect you emotionally to the music used all by itself.

    With some hitting a full 9-octaves support (usually on the bottom) may only be needed for enabling loud, more dyanmics, larger scale,

    With growing support that separate multiple woofers are required to get smooth room response in the bass, the goal for the upper ranges becomes 8 octaves -- even less if you feel abreviated, age-related hearing means less top required.
    Dave, again I completely agree with you and others suggesting similar.(Did you get my email regarding Mike?)

I am not "at odds" with any here, but I will propose the following as an unambiguous definition. I think this should satisfy most of those that have contributed, and ask that this not be reduced to an absolute semantic-based thread:

Single driver fullrange (definition): "a wideband driver that may or not be assisted by the inclusion of a tweeter or woofer or both (although they need not be) and most often used without a crossover (or a very minimalist one only at the frequency extremes if assisted)."

This should take all concerns into account. Does this seem to be explicit enough?

I most likely will never bother with a question regarding the needs of others or definitions. I thought this would be helpful but may just confuse enough to continue to contribute to long, contrived threads for the benefit of none.

I am sorry to have wasted anyone's time.
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