Is that a trick question?
No. I've been 'battling'/at odds with this subject of defining the various types of speaker categories for as long as I've been on the various audio BBs, web forums and it has nothing to do with my personal listening preferences, which varies somewhat with the needs of the app, same as most folks.
This thread is about coming up with some more accurate categorical definitions, which should be predicated on technical properties, not about mine or anyone else's personal listening preferences and/or whether they meet the needs of one's particular app.
It's up to the gentle reader to choose which definitive category of speaker design best meets the needs of their app, not mine or anyone else's unless they ask for the forum collective's opinions.
This is the problem with these types of threads in particular, folks won't stay on topic; just browse a wire/cable trying to find anything of technical value to help figure out what is required to meet the needs of one's app.
GM
I don't think that's an apt analogy, at least not for me.
A better one would be something like a really good bike. Not the fastest or most powerful vehicle. But under many everyday circumstances can be a better form of transport than a car (at least where I'm from ;-).
My purpose for this thread. (a little long)
Guys,
I was not asking for myself, although I do appreciate all the contributions. I thought that a quick post suggesting what one might call fullrange , as in "single fullrange driver" be explained simply for others (obviously "newbs") so that tons of questions regarding these types of drivers would be asked within the "fullrange" sub-forum, rather than having multi-way questions occur. I appreciate how some like the idea of "assisted" designs (whether a sub-woofer assisted FR driver such as the FAST systems, or a tweeter assisted FR or a tweeter and Sub-assisted FR), and have several types to listen to.
Mr. Brines: I understand that a truly fullrange driver may not be a reality, but I've got a few pairs here that are "almost" FR, and certainly don't leave me wanting in any way.
Cal: As usual, succinct and to the point, you speaker dork you.
Squeak: Quite a similar analogy using a different example than Cal's.
GM: Good points. I thought this might be easy, but of course everybody has an opinion and it really comes down to semantics (which I don't think it should). My idea was to provide some sort of "guide" for the newb member to start at regarding the various types of drivers/loudspeakers, etc. An OB need not be FR based, but many are. It can be MW based.(I know you didn't suggest this)
Hentai:Yup I think horns (based on size, etc) can be the closest to a FR possible.
picoswallspeaker:
IG81:
This is what mean by the use of a "helper", whether it be a tweeter, or a woofer.
ultrakaz:
But always worth the effort in my humble experience.
phivates:
A pretty reasonable stance, I think.
P10:
larryldspkr:
I guess this is the whole point.
I know others have commented:
Melo theory:
I'm not a moderator but think if this and other basic questions could be answered or nomenclature defined, then the over-all experience of the members (particularly "newbs") would be enhanced. Individual threads could be more directed to an OP's question or plead for help. All in the name of reduced confusion. And if an agreed upon definition could be adopted (whether one agrees completely with the adopted definition or not) , wouldn't this be helpful?
Semantic arguments can go on forever. This was intended as a basis for adopting a definition. Multi-way speakers are another, as well as "full-frequency" (multi-way) speakers.
Any that know me know that I don't (intend) to stir things up in any way. I really did think this would be an area of consensus.
Guys,
I was not asking for myself, although I do appreciate all the contributions. I thought that a quick post suggesting what one might call fullrange , as in "single fullrange driver" be explained simply for others (obviously "newbs") so that tons of questions regarding these types of drivers would be asked within the "fullrange" sub-forum, rather than having multi-way questions occur. I appreciate how some like the idea of "assisted" designs (whether a sub-woofer assisted FR driver such as the FAST systems, or a tweeter assisted FR or a tweeter and Sub-assisted FR), and have several types to listen to.
Mr. Brines: I understand that a truly fullrange driver may not be a reality, but I've got a few pairs here that are "almost" FR, and certainly don't leave me wanting in any way.
Cal: As usual, succinct and to the point, you speaker dork you
.Squeak: Quite a similar analogy using a different example than Cal's.
GM: Good points. I thought this might be easy, but of course everybody has an opinion and it really comes down to semantics (which I don't think it should). My idea was to provide some sort of "guide" for the newb member to start at regarding the various types of drivers/loudspeakers, etc. An OB need not be FR based, but many are. It can be MW based.(I know you didn't suggest this)
Hentai:Yup I think horns (based on size, etc) can be the closest to a FR possible.
picoswallspeaker:
IG81:
This is what mean by the use of a "helper", whether it be a tweeter, or a woofer.
ultrakaz:
But always worth the effort in my humble experience.
phivates:
A pretty reasonable stance, I think.
P10:
Yup
larryldspkr:
I guess this is the whole point.
I know others have commented:
- tvrgeek- are you really a TVR geek? If yes, pretty cool;
- adason;
- Bare;
Melo theory:
I'm not a moderator but think if this and other basic questions could be answered or nomenclature defined, then the over-all experience of the members (particularly "newbs") would be enhanced. Individual threads could be more directed to an OP's question or plead for help. All in the name of reduced confusion. And if an agreed upon definition could be adopted (whether one agrees completely with the adopted definition or not) , wouldn't this be helpful?
Semantic arguments can go on forever. This was intended as a basis for adopting a definition. Multi-way speakers are another, as well as "full-frequency" (multi-way) speakers.
Any that know me know that I don't (intend) to stir things up in any way. I really did think this would be an area of consensus.
It would be simpler to call this the single driver forum. "Fullrange" is a bit foolish since everyone is striving for a design that satisfies their personal definition of fullrange.
I think some folks have really missed the essence of what Bob and GM were saying. Everyone that had some response to Bob's / GM's posts had a "for my needs / preferences / etc" in their reponse.
I think some folks have really missed the essence of what Bob and GM were saying. Everyone that had some response to Bob's / GM's posts had a "for my needs / preferences / etc" in their reponse.
A full-range is a very extended midrange that can be enjoyed and connect you emotionally to the music used all by itself.
With some hitting a full 9-octaves support (usually on the bottom) may only be needed for enabling loud, more dyanmics, larger scale,
With growing support that separate multiple woofers are required to get smooth room response in the bass, the goal for the upper ranges becomes 8 octaves -- even less if you feel abreviated, age-related hearing means less top required.
dave
With some hitting a full 9-octaves support (usually on the bottom) may only be needed for enabling loud, more dyanmics, larger scale,
With growing support that separate multiple woofers are required to get smooth room response in the bass, the goal for the upper ranges becomes 8 octaves -- even less if you feel abreviated, age-related hearing means less top required.
dave
so here goes: perhaps an acceptable definition?
All: thanks for the contributions to this somewhat meaningless and accelerating thread that need not be (at least to this point). In response to last few posts the following:
I am not "at odds" with any here, but I will propose the following as an unambiguous definition. I think this should satisfy most of those that have contributed, and ask that this not be reduced to an absolute semantic-based thread:
Single driver fullrange (definition): "a wideband driver that may or not be assisted by the inclusion of a tweeter or woofer or both (although they need not be) and most often used without a crossover (or a very minimalist one only at the frequency extremes if assisted)."
This should take all concerns into account. Does this seem to be explicit enough?
I most likely will never bother with a question regarding the needs of others or definitions. I thought this would be helpful but may just confuse enough to continue to contribute to long, contrived threads for the benefit of none.
I am sorry to have wasted anyone's time.
All: thanks for the contributions to this somewhat meaningless and accelerating thread that need not be (at least to this point). In response to last few posts the following:
- fastbike1:
The simpler the better, however I can see some suggesting that this might be ambiguous based on assisted or non-assisted types.
- rjbond3rd:
Perhaps...
- planet10:
Dave, again I completely agree with you and others suggesting similar.(Did you get my email regarding Mike?)
I am not "at odds" with any here, but I will propose the following as an unambiguous definition. I think this should satisfy most of those that have contributed, and ask that this not be reduced to an absolute semantic-based thread:
Single driver fullrange (definition): "a wideband driver that may or not be assisted by the inclusion of a tweeter or woofer or both (although they need not be) and most often used without a crossover (or a very minimalist one only at the frequency extremes if assisted)."
This should take all concerns into account. Does this seem to be explicit enough?
I most likely will never bother with a question regarding the needs of others or definitions. I thought this would be helpful but may just confuse enough to continue to contribute to long, contrived threads for the benefit of none.
I am sorry to have wasted anyone's time.
A full-range driver is, in my opinion that can play music well without the need of a helper woofer or tweeter. CSS EL70 is a good example. It may not have the very highest highs or the very lowest bass but it can play most music and it sounds good.
A full range speaker is a speaker with any number of drivers playing 20-20000Hz -3dB, in my opinion.
A full range speaker is a speaker with any number of drivers playing 20-20000Hz -3dB, in my opinion.
Me too. Fullrange Driver means (to me) a wide band driver that can be used by itself and cover most of the music. Pretty simple. How wide that band is depends on the driver and the box. Fullrange Speaker is another term.
Then there is the "FR with help" cheat. Be really, once you get a helper woofer and a helper tweeter in there, isn't it a just 3-way speaker?
Then there is the "FR with help" cheat. Be really, once you get a helper woofer and a helper tweeter in there, isn't it a just 3-way speaker?
Oh no, not again.
Well, isn't he right? Maybe not a 3-way SPEAKER but a 3-way setup
Just to stir the Stewpot a bit, why exactly 20-20K? I know I certainly can't now (perhaps never could) hear that high, and on the few occasions that I've been "treated" to much content below 40 (i.e big sound effects laden THX cinema), it's not been particularly enjoyable. I can be damned happy enough with what I hear from say just a pair of Alpair10.2 - "full" enough for me - shouldn't that be enough?
Well, isn't he right? Maybe not a 3-way SPEAKER but a 3-way setup
Of course it's a 3 way. The XO points don't matter do they?
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