Hi Murphythecat8,
Okay, your reference are some mighty fine Tannoys -- that is setting the bar really high!
Cab-wise, I don't have an opinion but myself, if I find time, I will do a simple vented box and use a sub. Then you have the luxury of shelf-mounting, stand-mounting etc. Late in life, I'm learning the benefits of small cabinets, and the joy of being able to reposition them (after Klipschorns).
Yes, either Alpair (and even the CHR-70) is miles ahead of the 127 in the bass and the treble, but in fairness, did you have a 127 which lacked the needed BSC? As Chris661 has mentioned, it's easy to deal with even though frowned upon by nearly everyone here. My rule of thumb is: if the distortion it fixes (lack of bass) is greater than the distortion it might introduce, then using it is a net increase in fidelity.
Lowther are uber-dependent on the total execution. You might hear 9 painful ones for every oh-so-sweet one. And it's worth it. Never say never, they might blow your mind someday
Okay, your reference are some mighty fine Tannoys -- that is setting the bar really high!
Cab-wise, I don't have an opinion but myself, if I find time, I will do a simple vented box and use a sub. Then you have the luxury of shelf-mounting, stand-mounting etc. Late in life, I'm learning the benefits of small cabinets, and the joy of being able to reposition them (after Klipschorns).
Yes, either Alpair (and even the CHR-70) is miles ahead of the 127 in the bass and the treble, but in fairness, did you have a 127 which lacked the needed BSC? As Chris661 has mentioned, it's easy to deal with even though frowned upon by nearly everyone here. My rule of thumb is: if the distortion it fixes (lack of bass) is greater than the distortion it might introduce, then using it is a net increase in fidelity.
Lowther are uber-dependent on the total execution. You might hear 9 painful ones for every oh-so-sweet one. And it's worth it. Never say never, they might blow your mind someday
hiDepends on how much space you have.
jeff
my room is about 13x14 and in my bedroom! so theres a bed in front of the speakers but with my subs as a stand, the height is perfect and the speakers are right at their ear level when I'm lying there. im not too fussy about ear level. I am around 7 feet from the speakers and they are at around 5 feet from each other...
I was thikning to do a open baffle, but a box is lekiely better in my situation...?
Depends on how much space you have.
jeff
+1 - Jeff , I (and Dave?) have heard the 12Ps in the SuperPensil and Planet10 MarKen12T (or whatever they're called - it's easier to build the damn things than to remember all the names). As is rather characteristic of the differences between these two enclosure types, the Pensils will extract more weight & extension from the drivers, while the "Kens" deliver more finesse and leaner bass.
The SuperPensils for the 12s are not tiny - depending on material thickness, and without any bass, approx 10"W x 37"H x 18.5"D
There's also a smallish stand mounted BR enclosure that Colin Topps has built (Scott L's design?) - but by the time you account for the floor space of the requisite stands, why not go for a floorstander of some sort? With the 12Ps at $157 ea, the difference in cost of materials between any stand mount and full length enclosure (unless you get seriously exotic with veneers or high tech painting) shouldn't be all that significant in the overall scheme of things.
Since the first shipment sold through almost immediately, there by now must be dozens of builds underway / completed, surely feedback on a variety of designs (with our without moving pictures
) can't be far away.Perhaps Mark could invite/host a build gallery of such as a "Sticky Thread" on his commercial forum.
hey Chris, it seem I went against everyone advise finally and went with the 12!+1 - Jeff , I (and Dave?) have heard the 12Ps in the SuperPensil and Planet10 MarKen12T (or whatever they're called - it's easier to build the damn things than to remember all the names). As is rather characteristic of the differences between these two enclosure types, the Pensils will extract more weight & extension from the drivers, while the "Kens" deliver more finesse and leaner bass.
The SuperPensils for the 12s are not tiny - depending on material thickness, and without any bass, approx 10"W x 37"H x 18.5"D
There's also a smallish stand mounted BR enclosure that Colin Topps has built (Scott L's design?) - but by the time you account for the floor space of the requisite stands, why not go for a floorstander of some sort? With the 12Ps at $157 ea, the difference in cost of materials between any stand mount and full length enclosure (unless you get seriously exotic with veneers or high tech painting) shouldn't be all that significant in the overall scheme of things.
Since the first shipment sold through almost immediately, there by now must be dozens of builds underway / completed, surely feedback on a variety of designs (with our without moving pictures
Perhaps Mark could invite/host a build gallery of such as a "Sticky Thread" on his commercial forum.
okay, well if you consider that I will be using a crossover around 80 or 100 hertz for the sub bass, which enclosure would you build? mark ken or colin's?
hey Chris, it seem I went against everyone advise finally and went with the 12!
okay, well if you consider that I will be using a crossover around 80 or 100 hertz for the sub bass, which enclosure would you build? mark ken or colin's?
Jay:
1) correction to errata on previous post -
IOW, as I recall being discussed in an early construction thread, the overall height of cabinet places the driver a bit lower than a lot of folks like, so BASES could be required. Let there be no misunderstanding - the 12P in the SuperPensil is not deficient in the lower octaves, while the one "stand mounter" in which I've heard this driver in (i.e. the MarKen, which is not a standard Bass Reflex) might be considered so by some folks.
2) Since I've already built the MarKens, and haven't been particularly taken with any of numerous BRs I've built or heard with a variety of drivers over the past years, between the 2, I'd likely choose the former. Actually, if space was not an issue* and I wanted to extract the most from the 12P, after hearing what the Maeshowe/Valiant does with a 4" driver, I'd likely try the Avebury.
(* those familiar with my domestic situation can grin at that daydream)
hi chris, here you said this in other thread concerning the markken and superpensil enclosure:
Nah - simply put, it should be no surprise that the MarKen is as characteristically thin on ultimate "slam" / impact / bass extension with the 12P as with the other drivers I've heard them in, compared Pensils or the like ( ie. MLTL / variants)
In other words, unless you're already in possession of, or planning on supporting woofers for the MarKens, the SuperPensil would IMO be a much better bet. Played convincingly through the last dying lead out tracks on ELP "Lucky Man" (you know, the tone arm tracking test), and captured the in your lap dynamics of Muddy's vocals, full body of Willie Dixon's stand up bass, intricate noodling of Buddy's fretwork and room acoustics on "Folk Singer" "
so, when you say that the mark ken have less bass extension, what do you mean. as I said, I dont need much under 100 hertz at all.
here's what vinyl kid about both enclosure:
Given all the work that you put into these boxes Chris, you're more than entitled (and encouraged) to post listening impressions as well.
Super Pencils: These boxes have pretty good bass extension, but still sound quite balanced. I was a bit worried they were going to be boomy thru the mid bass, but they're not at all. This is encouraging, as I just guessed at the amount of polyfil to start with, so this gives a good base-line for future experimentation. Even at relatively low volume levels, music has "weight" to it, if the bass is present in the recording.
MarKenTs: These boxes give up low bass extension for a more "vivid" mid bass/lower mid-range presentation. They appear to be more articulate thru this frequency range as well, which is no surprise given the box design. They may also image a bit better, Chris got the "sweet spot" listening position for the comparison.
Vinylkid seems to believe that the mark ken are better in the midbass.
can you comment on both. I dont need bass extension, what I absolutely need is weight in the midbass section. weight is the key here for me, not bass extension.
sorry for all those question, but I want to be sure to build the right enclosure for my requirements.
thanks a lot
Nah - simply put, it should be no surprise that the MarKen is as characteristically thin on ultimate "slam" / impact / bass extension with the 12P as with the other drivers I've heard them in, compared Pensils or the like ( ie. MLTL / variants)
In other words, unless you're already in possession of, or planning on supporting woofers for the MarKens, the SuperPensil would IMO be a much better bet. Played convincingly through the last dying lead out tracks on ELP "Lucky Man" (you know, the tone arm tracking test), and captured the in your lap dynamics of Muddy's vocals, full body of Willie Dixon's stand up bass, intricate noodling of Buddy's fretwork and room acoustics on "Folk Singer" "
so, when you say that the mark ken have less bass extension, what do you mean. as I said, I dont need much under 100 hertz at all.
here's what vinyl kid about both enclosure:
Given all the work that you put into these boxes Chris, you're more than entitled (and encouraged) to post listening impressions as well.
Super Pencils: These boxes have pretty good bass extension, but still sound quite balanced. I was a bit worried they were going to be boomy thru the mid bass, but they're not at all. This is encouraging, as I just guessed at the amount of polyfil to start with, so this gives a good base-line for future experimentation. Even at relatively low volume levels, music has "weight" to it, if the bass is present in the recording.
MarKenTs: These boxes give up low bass extension for a more "vivid" mid bass/lower mid-range presentation. They appear to be more articulate thru this frequency range as well, which is no surprise given the box design. They may also image a bit better, Chris got the "sweet spot" listening position for the comparison.
Vinylkid seems to believe that the mark ken are better in the midbass.
can you comment on both. I dont need bass extension, what I absolutely need is weight in the midbass section. weight is the key here for me, not bass extension.
sorry for all those question, but I want to be sure to build the right enclosure for my requirements.
thanks a lot
yup, it's a bit of a trip down the rabbit hole, innit? and apologies for my verbosity and obfuscatory replies
It's always risky extrapolating one's own experience and "taste" to proffering of advice to others without a shared reference - in other words, no-one should try to guess what might be the correct amount of weight in the mid bass for you
Even when you describe the FE127E as "thin" in the Fonken (a combination with which I'm quite familiar), it's hard for me to really know exactly what that means unless we have another reference of what is "right" - an assessment with which I ( & others?) might not necessarily agree
Then there's the question of attaining the performance you're looking for with this driver in an OB as small as you've contemplated - I'm hardly the right guy to address that issue, as I've yet to hear an OB system that I could either live with* or afford. The only one that came close was Lowther / Tone Tubby & ubber expensive upstream components.
* sonically - aesthetically all are dead in the water for me from WAF - and after 42yrs, all y'all can save your breath on the relationship advice
A vented box can be designed to give more deep extension (typically desired but not needed in this case) or tuned higher (more conservatively) to give more midbass thump.
Since you are particular in this regard, I'd recommend building your own box and using a port tube that you can tune higher or lower. You need to be able to adjust the resonant frequency and ideally, the speaker's Q. Add the necessary amount of BSC and you should be ready to rock, and going forward, you'd have the option of adjusting the tuning for best in-room response.
Other designs, however masterfully executed, will have been designed for the more general case, with tradeoffs already made. That suits most people but it does sound like you're very particular about wanting that rich, strong midbass (vs. extension) and a tunable design seems called for.
Since you are particular in this regard, I'd recommend building your own box and using a port tube that you can tune higher or lower. You need to be able to adjust the resonant frequency and ideally, the speaker's Q. Add the necessary amount of BSC and you should be ready to rock, and going forward, you'd have the option of adjusting the tuning for best in-room response.
Other designs, however masterfully executed, will have been designed for the more general case, with tradeoffs already made. That suits most people but it does sound like you're very particular about wanting that rich, strong midbass (vs. extension) and a tunable design seems called for.
all good advice, but to shorten the decision process, I think Jay needs to decide one way or the other between any type of "box" for the 12P and OB as contemplated here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/222154-open-baffle-alpair-12p-new-post.html
Your quest for mid-bass "weight" is really being covered by the subs. This should work just fine with the smaller stand mount boxes, but not with a Super Pencil, as they have "weight" all by themselves.
jeff
yes, the open baffle option is cancelled. I dont trust myself enough to build a box from scratch and my room is too small and I have subs that act exactly as subs, I shall use that.
I guess my choice is limited by a stand mount since the superpencil isnt suppose to sound much better in the area i most defenitly need, the midbass
so the only two options for now is either the mark ken, or collins enclosure and I guess nobody heard both.
I might go crazy and do both enclosure...
That's fine but it's super easy to (yourself or here in the group) calculate a box, a vent and (if needed) simple filter.
You end up with an extreme amount of adjustability (e.g. swap out one piece of PVC pipe for a longer or shorter length, and -totally- change the sound of the speaker's bass). Your options remain open. Unfortunately, you will eventually become as smart as the smart people here
You end up with an extreme amount of adjustability (e.g. swap out one piece of PVC pipe for a longer or shorter length, and -totally- change the sound of the speaker's bass). Your options remain open. Unfortunately, you will eventually become as smart as the smart people here
gee, that would be crazy - who'd even wanna build several different designs just to pick a favorite?
okay great, so what are the options for a bookshelves? can you help me with the design?That's fine but it's super easy to (yourself or here in the group) calculate a box, a vent and (if needed) simple filter.
You end up with an extreme amount of adjustability (e.g. swap out one piece of PVC pipe for a longer or shorter length, and -totally- change the sound of the speaker's bass). Your options remain open. Unfortunately, you will eventually become as smart as the smart people here
Please let me chime in and give my 2 cents worth on the mark audios Alpair 6. Paper drivers. They are more real and more live then any fostex driver I have heard and they do have good bass. They lack sparkle on the top ens is a little soft but, hay what do you expect for a 3 inch drivers. No other 3 inch driver is as good but, the fostex ff85 wk took my 7 inch fullrange driver to hights with it add in. Never tired them in a box. I broke them in for 135 to 150 hours free air low, low volums. Sold him to a friend due to other projects due. Mark has a get future and great drivers
. Jeff
. JeffYes, I'll try to post something within a few days. Chances are someone will beat me to it, which would be fine of course!
ok,, rjbond, thats exciting.
but I have to ask, why do you think that what we could come up with would sound better then the planet 10 markken enclosure?
is it really easy to do something from scratch for my needs? dont you think I would need to have the experience to know that what I just build is good and cant be bettered? but I'm really interested by what you could come up with!
but I have to ask, why do you think that what we could come up with would sound better then the planet 10 markken enclosure?
is it really easy to do something from scratch for my needs? dont you think I would need to have the experience to know that what I just build is good and cant be bettered? but I'm really interested by what you could come up with!
Hi Murphy,
I'm only saying that we can come up with something more -flexible- with regard to tuning it to your preferences. And that's because it's easy to change out a PVC pipe for something longer or shorter, thus tune-able. That's the only advantage.
You might hate the results, but you'd have the flexibility to change them after the fact. Doing that with other more established designs would be tough, as the vents are made of wood
I'm only saying that we can come up with something more -flexible- with regard to tuning it to your preferences. And that's because it's easy to change out a PVC pipe for something longer or shorter, thus tune-able. That's the only advantage.
You might hate the results, but you'd have the flexibility to change them after the fact. Doing that with other more established designs would be tough, as the vents are made of wood
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