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Old 13th December 2012, 06:39 PM   #21
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Oh and put the references in the text.
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Old 13th December 2012, 06:45 PM   #22
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stochastic View Post
So I finished my paper and had it marked so I can now post it
here to get some seriously critical feedback (see attached pdf). .
Hi,

Your title is a premise that your conclusion reiterates.

However nothing in your paper really justifies either.

Its more wishful thinking than rigorous analysis.

There is no evidence whatsoever that most of the issues with
FR's can be resolved, in any time frame or at any expense.

rgds, sreten.
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Last edited by sreten; 13th December 2012 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 13th December 2012, 08:31 PM   #23
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I loved the paper. Excellent job.

As I read it, I did find numerous things one could quibble with, but that's normal in audio
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:44 AM   #24
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Remember that critics do nothing better than criticism
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Old 14th December 2012, 05:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
Hi,

Your title is a premise that your conclusion reiterates.

However nothing in your paper really justifies either.

Its more wishful thinking than rigorous analysis.

There is no evidence whatsoever that most of the issues with
FR's can be resolved, in any time frame or at any expense.

rgds, sreten.
I'd love for you to elaborate on this feedback, it may be quite insightful, but is also quite terse. It almost reeks of someone who just disagrees with the argument but I think you have more to say. Would love to hear it.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:44 PM   #26
DogStar is offline DogStar  Europe
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Default Some tips

Loudspeaker building is a spare time activity for me. Thus, I know little of the underlying theory of loudspeakers (speaker drivers) and how they work. Therefore I may not be able to comment on the technical aspects of your paper (or maybe we should refer to it as a write-up). I may however be able to comment on the presentation. From what I can see it is quite well written. It provides a fairly straightforward introduction to the subject single driver speaker systems vs. multi driver systems.

BUT

To do real scientific research one must be very clear of the problem to be studied (the research question) and the proposed solution (the answer to the research question). In your write-up, the research question, and its answer, is far from clear. In most areas of research, improvements (or developments) are done in small increments. Thus, I would say that your topic is too broad and thereby too difficult to answer (several rather specific topics have been suggested here).

I am pretty sure that doing research within this field requires a very thorough understanding of the underlying theory. That basically means a lot of mathematics. Your research question, and its answer, should be formulated in terms of mathematical models (if you do empirical research you may get of a little “cheaper”). Browsing around diy forums would not help you much in this regard (sorry guys).

I strongly encourage you to keep on writing. It will benefit your future studies as well as your future career.

Good luck

Last edited by DogStar; 14th December 2012 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 15th December 2012, 07:09 AM   #27
benb is offline benb  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
You might think about dividing full range into two subjects. Information may be different. The majority of full range drivers are extreme price sensitive: Cars, TV's, Boom boxes etc. The goals for range and quality are very different from the niche market this forum discusses where musicality, even at the expense of very limited range, limited levels and breakup issues are the primer concern. Sub $1 speakers made in the tens of thousands or more, vs. low production high fidelity. Both are difficult topics. I have to admit, I have never seen a paper on $1 speaker ( OEM cost) quality, only about more generic manufacturing process and quality. I suspect the work is done by the OEM's and never published. Seems a shame the biggest market is not served by research on performance as much as cost.
Speak of the devil, just got a few of these "20 watt" nearly-full-rangers at a previous sale price (a quantity price is currently on the front page of the site):
5.25" Dual Cone 20 Watt Speaker-The Electronic Goldmine
FWIW, resonant frequency is around 120Hz. I'm thinking of using an array of these in a small guitar amp cabinet, though no doubt my money would have been better spent on the blowout sales at Parts Express. and I may still do that.

I can only wonder what research and tests might be done on cheap drivers other than "it sounds good enough for what it is, let's start the assembly line."
Quote:
Originally Posted by stochastic View Post
So I finished my paper and had it marked so I can now post it here to get some seriously critical feedback (see attached pdf). I know it's not up to diyaudio standards of discussion, but it was only a first year paper in a general engineering class. I would honestly love to hear why I'm totally wrong or somewhat right, or ... it'll help me out in the long run.
You mention doppler distortion as equivalent to intermodulation distortion, and while doppler distortion DOES create intermodulation distortion, I'm not convinced it's the only source, or even the major source, depending on volume level and driver. Various parts of the mechanical systems and magnetic field are not perfectly linear and may cause their own intermodulation (just like nonlinearity in the electronic signal path causes intermodulation). I'm not an expert on drivers and don't know this for sure, but (based on what I recall of Dickason's and Colloms' books) I presume it's true.

The Rod Elliot page on doppler distortion is quite interesting. There was someone on rec.audio.pro about ten years ago who didn't believe the existence of doppler distortion - he was quite intelligent and knowledgeable otherwise, but seemed to think the "source" of loudspeaker sound was the magnet structure or something, rather than the cone. I can only wonder if he was one of the unnamed people Elliot was writing about. I saw later where he had eventually accepted the idea, but this was well after hundreds, perhaps thousands of post between him and many others (including me), and I had tired of the discussion before seeing what had changed his mind.

As for comparison, you seem to gloss over the power handling and sound volume that can be generated by a 2-way compared to a full-range. I think this by itself is enough to explain the great popularity of multi-way speakers over fullrange ones in the "mid-fi" market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Oh and put the references in the text.
I can find the references at the end, but I'm wondering what it might take to find the reference page numbers, which are NOT given. I've got (for example) the Roads book sitting on the shelf at the office - I haven't looked at it in years, but I recall that it's several inches thick and a bit unwieldy for a paperback. The reference to frequency modulation theory surely helps narrow down what you're referencing in the book, but page numbers for each larger-than-a-web-page reference would help a lot.
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Old 15th December 2012, 10:13 AM   #28
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Stochastic,
I like your paper. As an introductory paper meant to highlight some technical differences and provide the reader with some background for understanding the issues, limitations, and current issues between multiway and fullrange, I think you did a great job. I don't think you were aiming to write a 'research paper' like one to be submitted to a scientific or engineering journal. I used to write those for a living and know what is involved and their aim is completely different than your paper. Some of the other comments you have received in this thread are good. It could use a little more organization, and maybe clean up the conclusion to make it crisp. It seems a little unbalanced in being a proponent of fullrange, but if it is meant to be an essay that is fine. Fix the imbalance by saying what multiways still excel at if done properly (like state of the art bi amplified studio reference monitors with active eq). I don't think a little 4 or 5 inch fullrange will ever have the sonic impact and punch of a multiway for genres like rock, hip hop, or big classical orchestral pieces with canons, kettle drums and 30 strings and 20 woodwinds playing simultaneously - which is also where spatial stereo imaging is not as important anymore. You did a great job in describing the one place where fullrange excels: vocals. Your paper provided me a lot of info on terminology that is new to me as I have only been in this diy hobby for a couple of months now. So it was useful for me, as an engineer, who does not have a background in hifi audio, but is familiar with other things like Doppler shift, Bessel functions, fast Fourier transforms, resonant frequencies, DSP's etc. For example, I did not know what was meant by 'cone breakup' and your paper gave a good description.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards,
Xrk971

Last edited by xrk971; 15th December 2012 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 15th December 2012, 10:49 AM   #29
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Hi stochastic,
If I've understood correctly, this is your first year as an undergraduate engineering student. I assume your heading towards a Bachelor of Science (or similar). Your paper looks interesting, I hope to read it in more detail over Christmas

I'd urge you in the coming months/years of study to carefully evaluate all your referencing. Don't automatically assume they are authoritative unless they can clearly demonstrate trailed testing and/or repeated/independent research that reliably authenticates their outcomes. When is comes to audio, there's published theoretical material thats rarely backed up by trailed/applied testing; And possibly more "opinion" thats dressed up to look factual.

Enjoy your engineering future!

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 15th December 2012 at 11:19 AM. Reason: typo correction
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:10 AM   #30
DogStar is offline DogStar  Europe
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Just to be clear on one more thing. The way you reference is completely correct.

Last edited by DogStar; 15th December 2012 at 11:12 AM.
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