Yes we do. But one question, could you guess the off-axis behavior I've shown when looking at the vendor's graphs? I certainly can't.
The typical use for any driver is in a room that creates reflections. Just looking at ±30° doesn't show the whole picture. When does that simple fact reach this part of the DIY forum?
Furthermore I'd like to see much closer angles within the listening window where ears will actually be placed.
Sure, the customer first has to buy a driver in oder to get the data that would warrant the buy. How twisted is that? You, Bob Brines, planet10 and chrisb are vendors. Step up to the plate! Otherwise your contributions here are nothing more than sales activities.
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Cross to a tweeter or ribbon and then you can enjoy many of the great merits of this driver and drop the parts that are most frustrating. If it is limited above 6-7K or wherever, then dont use it there. THe Vifa that was shown has warts too....like every driver I have eever seen. Choose your drivers, make your compromises and move forward. It is beginning to look like you have some sort of agenda against MA drivers, otherwise you would be posting results of multiple other drivers on the market with corresponding graphs showing they dont quite match up. Try the tweeter thing and tell me what you think.
Not the topic of this thread.
I'd think so too but do you have any measurements that would actually show what those warts are? That's what this thread is about.
It is you guys that very clearly have an agenda. You keep the pot boiling. Just stop posting ad hominem attacks or red herrings. I've posted measurements. They show the truth. There's really nothing more to say. Instead you could post something on-topic?
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Your raise some interesting points. Some of which are obviously based on conjecture. But nevertheless some points that it's interesting to have people discuss.
The problem is your style. There is a quite apparent streak of passive and not so passive aggressivenes in your choice of words and some arrogance too.
Wouldn't it be a pity to have people ignore and overlook you and your relevant points over a matter of style?
Try to be more diplomatic. Just my humble advice.
And then there is the matter of you swinging wildly from being an oldschool ossified positivist in one post, and then for instance asking people to listen to the whole room in a realworld situation the next. Which one is it?
Psychoacoustics is not a large field for nothing.
The simple observation that our ears sensitivity lobe points more to the side than forward, would be a starting observation in realizing that putting a mic in front of the driver and turning the speaker through 90 degrees can only tell us so much.
The problem is your style. There is a quite apparent streak of passive and not so passive aggressivenes in your choice of words and some arrogance too.
Wouldn't it be a pity to have people ignore and overlook you and your relevant points over a matter of style?
Try to be more diplomatic. Just my humble advice.
And then there is the matter of you swinging wildly from being an oldschool ossified positivist in one post, and then for instance asking people to listen to the whole room in a realworld situation the next. Which one is it?
Psychoacoustics is not a large field for nothing.
The simple observation that our ears sensitivity lobe points more to the side than forward, would be a starting observation in realizing that putting a mic in front of the driver and turning the speaker through 90 degrees can only tell us so much.
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OK then, my apologies. Where are some graphs of other 3/4" drivers with good dispersion and high xmax? In other words, do you have a driver in mind that achieves your goals or are you simply looking for one? This is in the FR section. DO you want a FR driver that goes to 20K. I dont think it exist without many if not all of the same issues as the current one. This is the main reason for the suggestion of adding a tweeter. I dont think there is a driver available that has the characteristics you are looking for. There is the option of a tweeter in a waveguide. not 3-4", but clean down fairly low.
https://plus.google.com/photos/101632266659473725850/albums/5830521229149034193?banner=pwa
I'm getting asked if I'm looking for a driver in a thread with the title "3"/4" driver with very good dispersion and high xmax?" that I had started. Who wouldn't be frustrated?
I could. It is common, even "typical" of cone drivers of that size. As is the "bloom" of the much smaller "tweeter button". This is exactly the same behavior as one sees in any M/T combination (absent the asymmetric lobing that results from vertical spacing) and how it sums to "power response" in the listening room depends a great deal on . . . the listening room.
I find the overall power response rolloff to be not only not a problem, but desirable (and so, by the way, does Toole). Maybe that's (part of) why, despite not generating the "straight line" graph that enamors some, the things sound good in use (as opposed to "look good" under test). The "tweeter peak" does indeed look extreme (although that is easily corrected, if it matters), but it is also quite narrow (beaming) so a couple lines on paper don't tell much about how it sums, or sounds, "in room".
I'm much more concerned by the "glitch" between 1 and 2 kHz, but then that too is common to 4" drivers (though a bit muted by soft cones).
The mechanical crossover in the 7.3 is, by its very nature, highly dependent on the mechanical properties of the decoupling joint. Whether that improves (or degrades) over time only time will tell. It's the price paid for the concentric mounting, and how it compares, in balance, to the irregular radiation pattern of separate M/T combinations will continue to be argued, I'm sure. There's a lot more to how a speaker sounds in use than a few lines on a chart (describing just one of the drivers at that).
There is a faint but important line between being frustrated and aggressive. The responses you got indicates that people feel you crossed it.
If you read those threads you'll find many of my measurements with reflectors and lenses. Let's stick to the topic here.
I dont think it exist or everybody would be using it. Their are simply limitations that cannot be overcome. As you can see, there is not a flood of suggestions other than FR units that have similar issues. A fewof the guys in this thread have more experience with FR drivers than anybody i know and you are largely ignoring them. How do we proceed? Are you willing to go small midrange to tweeter?
Maybe they crossed the line by posting misleading data which made me buy the driver?
The problem with that (M/T-in-a-waveguide) is an absolutely horrible radiation pattern and poorly defined (usually terrible) "power response". Discussing it without including ceiling bounce and other "room effects" misses most of the flaws of that approach, and makes comparisons to drivers like the 7.3 meaningless (until one reverts to "how it sounds"). That's what's wrong with this "lines on a chart" approach . . . it doesn't manage to account for what we actually hear in the listening room.
Build a decent cab for them, and do a test and compare to a speaker you know you like. If you still have grievances with the sound of the upper registers then I guess naked driver FR is just not for you.
Sell the Alpairs to recoup some of the money and go on to two-way designs or whatever.
You could wait forever for a driver that completely satisfies you.
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You keep going "off topic", you keep going "ad hominem", and you keep imploring others to not do either.
Take your own medicine.
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This is interesting. Could you explain further? I am currently working with a waveguide on a TL Labs tweeter and the reason for the waveguide was to have a good match between the woofer and the tweeters off axis response. I must admit that I do not like what i hear so far as it seems to kill the presentation.
Markus - in reading the above thread - but admittedly not others of yours by which a style and or agenda could be deduced- I've yet to see comments of your listening impressions.
Perhaps they're buried in the repetitive vituperation directed at the manufacturer of the Alpair driver that has become your Sysiphus, or at users who for some reason you can't seem to comprehend are unapologetically satisfied with its real world performance. NB, I don't consider myself to be a direct vendor, but agree that that subject is a Gordian knot in itself. Any search of my own posting history here would certainly reveal that I'm a big fan of the A7.3, as well as less than enamoured, to put it mildly, of the ultimate relevance of measurements, and finally not giving of a rip as to who cares about what I think.
To repeat what others have said, there may well be no driver that meets your strict requirements. If you have a pair of A7.3s that you can't being yourself to live with as many of us have, sell them and move on.
Perhaps they're buried in the repetitive vituperation directed at the manufacturer of the Alpair driver that has become your Sysiphus, or at users who for some reason you can't seem to comprehend are unapologetically satisfied with its real world performance. NB, I don't consider myself to be a direct vendor, but agree that that subject is a Gordian knot in itself. Any search of my own posting history here would certainly reveal that I'm a big fan of the A7.3, as well as less than enamoured, to put it mildly, of the ultimate relevance of measurements, and finally not giving of a rip as to who cares about what I think.
To repeat what others have said, there may well be no driver that meets your strict requirements. If you have a pair of A7.3s that you can't being yourself to live with as many of us have, sell them and move on.
Thread title is "3"/4" driver with very good dispersion and high xmax?"
Thread title is not "what are your listening impressions of the Alpair 7.3", "what is your agenda", "aren't reflector and lenses what you're really looking for?", "you need a tweeter", "waveguides are terrible", "I can predict full polar response just by looking at 3 axes", "mastering engineers are a...holes", "I like red herrings a lot", "it's okay to trick customers with sugarcotet data because everybody does it", "I fink u freeky", etc. pp.
So if anybody has meaningful data (preferably off-axis response out to 90°) regarding the topic at hand ("3"/4" driver with very good dispersion and high xmax?") I would be grateful if he would post it.
Thread title is not "what are your listening impressions of the Alpair 7.3", "what is your agenda", "aren't reflector and lenses what you're really looking for?", "you need a tweeter", "waveguides are terrible", "I can predict full polar response just by looking at 3 axes", "mastering engineers are a...holes", "I like red herrings a lot", "it's okay to trick customers with sugarcotet data because everybody does it", "I fink u freeky", etc. pp.
So if anybody has meaningful data (preferably off-axis response out to 90°) regarding the topic at hand ("3"/4" driver with very good dispersion and high xmax?") I would be grateful if he would post it.
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