3"or 4" driver with very good dispersion and high xmax? - Page 19 - diyAudio
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Old 24th February 2014, 02:57 PM   #181
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Warts (from post #148) look a lot smaller for the TC9FD when plotted on the -10dB to 110dB scale used by the A7.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by xrk971; 24th February 2014 at 03:03 PM.
 
Old 24th February 2014, 03:33 PM   #182
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Of course. That's one way of presenting data. MA state they do not use software smoothing; they evidently use a wide dynamic range as an alternative. Similar effect, just as adjusting the horizontal axis can have an apparent visual effect also with the same actual data. They are a manufacturer. It is not in their interest to present data in the worst possible light. But the scales are there in black and white for people to read, so by definition, it cannot be called a lie, misleading or any similar term. If people don't read it, they are not best placed to moan about it after the event.

Can we please all be reasonable for a moment, since this is all getting very silly. I for one have got a vile headache anyway thanks to the dreaded lurgy, and the manner of the thread in general at present is not likely to get anybody anywhere productive. So.

-Markus, nobody doubts you don't like the drivers. Fair enough. They can't be all things to all people.

-Nobody is doubting your measures either. They are clearly solid, and concur with the published plots, as has been noted by several people here, rather well once the dramatically different scale you have used is accounted for.

-No 4in wideband drive unit has wonderful off-axis response once you get past about 30 degrees. That's just the physics at work. As several have already stated. If you know better, then you would be well advised to get the funding together & build it. You will make lots of money.

-Out to 90 degrees off axis, placing the mic. on the same plane as the driver itself, is, TBH, completely unrealistic expectations. Not many tweeters do all that well so far off, and a 4in widebander = zero chance to the best of my knowledge. Sorry, but that is the truth as far as I am aware.
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Last edited by Scottmoose; 24th February 2014 at 03:35 PM.
 
Old 24th February 2014, 03:34 PM   #183
Squeak is offline Squeak  Denmark
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The Alpair (and other Jordan derived drivers) are to the best of my knowledge and apparently to the rest of the forums, the state of the art with regards to your criteria.

Stop being the drunk who is looking for his keys under the lamppost or the treasurehunters who just redouble their effords and dig deeper when they don't find anything.

Change your point of view and old stuff you thought you knew will look new.
 
Old 24th February 2014, 04:00 PM   #184
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
What? By looking at this...
Yes. The dispersion of a 3-4 inch cone driver is determined by physics, not wishful thinking. A 3 inch will have wider dispersion to a higher frequency than a 4 inch (at the price of less low end) . . . apart from that the dispersion is predictable without even looking at the graphs. What's not so predictable is how effectively any of the various dispersion-broadening "solutions" (phase plug, whizzer cone, "button" tweeter, progressive decoupling) will widen dispersion above that, or how they will "sound" in use. Experience tells me that charts and graphs won't answer that question . . . that what "looks good" may not sound good, and what sounds good may look . . . um . . . less than exemplary.

At some point you simply have to listen . . .
 
Old 24th February 2014, 04:23 PM   #185
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I've never heard the little Vifa displayed in xrk's most recent post - but it "looks" benign enough - note that if I'm not mistaken, the scaling isn't the same as the several others posted for the 7.3. Failing to correct for scaling differences or measurement conditions when comparing graphs can be in itself very misleading - whether that's to be judged as intentionally nefarious or simply incidental is up to the reader, I guess .

dizzy yet from all those laps around the carousel? - the golden ring you seek is imaginary, methinks
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Old 24th February 2014, 05:07 PM   #186
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The Vifa shown by xrk is widely enjoyed by many. It does look better than the 7.3 on paper and I will not dismiss its performance, as I have not heard it. Listening again to the 7.3 last night, i am still impressed by its ability to go low and how wonderfully it images. That being said, I have come from listening to multiways and now find the top end a little harsh in comparison to some good dome tweeters. That being said, mine are not eNabled and i have not applied any smoothing at all. IN measuring mine last night, I found a very similar response to you Markus and based on what I hear and my general thoughts, I will be adding the TL Labs tweeter up top to see how they perform together. I would try the Vifa,but i am trying to get more efficient, not less.

This doesn't look bad
Faital Pro 3FE20 3" Speakers - Faital Pro 3FE20 mid-high speaker has a wide frequency range from 100Hz to 20kHz and has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 3FE20 40 watt 3" has an efficiency of 91dB SPL for all high quality mid-high applicati

Or this one
Faital Pro 4FE32 4" Speakers - Faital Pro 4FE32 mid-high speaker has a wide frequency range from 90Hz to 20kHz and has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 4FE32 60 watt 3" has an efficiency of 91dB SPL for all high quality mid-high applicatio
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Old 24th February 2014, 05:26 PM   #187
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
I've never heard the little Vifa displayed in xrk's most recent post - but it "looks" benign enough - note that if I'm not mistaken, the scaling isn't the same as the several others posted for the 7.3. Failing to correct for scaling differences or measurement conditions when comparing graphs can be in itself very misleading - whether that's to be judged as intentionally nefarious or simply incidental is up to the reader, I guess .

dizzy yet from all those laps around the carousel? - the golden ring you seek is imaginary, methinks
I actually chose the same scale that MA uses: -10dB to +110dB in 10dB major increments. My absolute SPL is higher because I did not set volume to be exactly 2.83V and my distance was not 1m. Just showing angular dependence.

If you have not heard one, give it try. At $12 ea you can't go wrong.
 
Old 24th February 2014, 05:43 PM   #188
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Agreed, it's an excellent little driver of its type, especially for the money.
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Old 24th February 2014, 05:47 PM   #189
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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I'm not a measurement guy, so don't be too surprised by the question - any chance that measures taken at different signal drive levels would not be exactly comparable - angular dependance notwithstanding? And could that be particularly germane with wide band drivers such as the Alpairs that as Scott and Mark would likely state whose function in the upper registers is specifically designed with controlled decoupling / micro-resonance behaviour. I've lived with A7s for several years now, and as much as I love them, wouldn't want to listen at a distance of 10ft at the sustained average levels seen in some of the graphs (i.e. mid to upper 90s or more) At those SPLs multiways with horn loaded compression drivers might be a more logical solution. or not

Then there's the question of all the conditions, size of baffle, mic calibration, etc. If it's not been addressed in this thread, assuming that all the conditions of measurements are identical among the various testers could lead to dissimilar results for identical drivers. Of course that wouldn't explain the grossest of apparent discrepancies that have been seen here.

For some reason the printed scale or resolution of that one graph looked different from those posted by several folks for the A7.3, but I don't possess the technical acumen to normalize them.

Thanks for the suggestion on the VIfas - might wanna try those sometime, but maybe in a wooden box

that's with 2 "o" s
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Old 24th February 2014, 06:41 PM   #190
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Roger Russel, formerly of McIntosh, put it well when he said that the Peerless TC9 driver is one of the most correctable drivers of its type. It's little brother, the Vifa TC9 is VERY similar. The TG9 has a glass fiber cone, and the TC9 has a treated paper cone, otherwise virtually no difference. And they measure very similarly. Personally I like the TC9 better because it's all black. The TG9 has a light gray cone with a black dust cover, which looks a little weird to me. That Faital 3 inch driver looks pretty good too, if you can believe the published frequency response graph.

Zaphaudio.com is a great website full of every kind of graph for dozens of drivers and suggested systems. Zaph appears to be pretty sharp. His website is a little disorganized; many drivers are not listed in the categories on the front page. I had to go into his blog to get the graph for the Vifa TC9 driver, but here it is (He also has graphs on harmonic distortion, spectral decay, and a few others - check it out - scroll a little ways down the page):

http://www.zaphaudio.com/blog.html
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Last edited by Bob Richards; 24th February 2014 at 06:57 PM.
 

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