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Old 16th September 2012, 09:10 PM   #1
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Default Full range project - Suggestions

Hello to all, sorry for my post being pretty long ... and the poor english.

After a lot of search, study and ... swift changes of direction, I have (almost) come to a decision on which project to tackle. However, my primary hobby (and also 2nd, and 3rd perhaps) is completely different from Hi-Fi DIY, and so my knowledge on loudspeakers theory is far from being optimal (one cannot be an expert on everything, after all). I've been reading thousands of threads and posts in the last months, but I still have too many doubts left.
What I know if that I'd like to make a Fullrange, possibly closed box, wide baffle design.
Therefore I dare to post this thread to kindly ask if anyone can answer a couple of questions which might really help me out ...

Data.
music I listen to: everything, but I like much 60' (male and female singers), Dire Straits,
room 5 x 6.5 m, trapezoidal (!!!) shape. Loudspeakers on the sloped wall.
valve amplifier 45w el34 p/p
sources: CD, SqueezeBox, Vinyl
I like transparent but not harsh sound (i.e. high not overly sparkling). Better if on the warmer side than the other way round.

Questions.
1. Driver. Since I'm after a design not too "wall sensible", I assumed a closed, wide baffle enclosure would be better. Drivers identified were Seas FA22RCZ or Visaton B200 or ... (Suggestions?)
2. Enclosure. as far as the cabinet, options are the Seas design for the Exotic F8 fullrange (floorstander) or the Klang+Ton wide baffle enclosure (preferred due to the wide baffle). They are not specific for the FA22RCZ but should work as well (seas specifies 60L closed box for both the F8 and FA22 drivers). Opinion on this / other suggestions?
3. Filter. Seas suggest trying a couple of different filters to tame a little the frequency responce of the driver. Is this advice generally acceptable (i.e. best to try on every drivers) or I need to hear the result and apply if needed?

As said, the main aim for myself is the building itself (pretty good in wood working) and the pleasure of listening to my music with something I built. Unfortunately I don't have the time to "experiment" too much. Therefore the need for a pretty ... sure design: Basically (and hopefully) a: Driver + Enclosure + Tips/Tricks package which match my needs at the end of the thread ...

Many thanks in advance to anyone willing to shed some light!

C
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Old 16th September 2012, 10:13 PM   #2
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Louther?

Wide or narrow, if you radius the edges correctly, it is not an issue.
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Old 17th September 2012, 09:53 PM   #3
kendt is offline kendt  Canada
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I would recommend you get a mini dsp. Even the basic bare kit. Best 99 bucks i ever spent. It with the RTA app on my smart phone has saved me a lot of time and guesswork. You can use the dsp to correct documented imprefections in the response of the driver you choose as well as adding in room corrections.Its also a great learning tool as you can make real time changes to hear the affects imediately. When you come up with the right xover paramaters you can build the same thing passively if you wish and free up the dsp for future projects.
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Old 17th September 2012, 10:34 PM   #4
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

With a 45W per channel valve amplifier your not really stuck with
FR designs more suited to lower power single ended designs.

Filters for FR's can be / should be done at line level.
The Seas driver over the Visaton IMO.

However if you want something that is like a Wilson WATT/Puppy on a
budget I'd suggest : https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus

You can go to town on the cabinet build if you want, see the build logs.
They will take all your amplifier can chuck at them and then some *.

Compared to an FR your talking chalk and cheese, I know what I'd want.

rgds, sreten.

* The WATT/Puppy could handle 200W amplifiers but was also a good
choice for 20W+ valve amplifiers, the same sort of reasoning here,
the Tarkus will give you more clean bass power with your amplifier
than higher efficiency designs without breaking a sweat, but won't
have the midrange dynamics of some FR's choices, I like bass.
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When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 17th September 2012 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 17th September 2012, 10:59 PM   #5
hm is offline hm  Europe
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Default cyberlancer

Hello,
look my HP,
afew satellites over 100 Hz for both drivers.
and the doubelhorns no impedanz bass resonanz,
down ~30 Hz, for both driver.
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Old 18th September 2012, 09:05 AM   #6
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thanks to all for your kind answer. A couple of clarification:

@kendt: you mean these? Home | miniDSP I was thinking about the opportunity to make use of such a device but they can be used with an integrated amplifier? If so, do I need to put it between source and amplifier? This will alter the input signal in the pre, instead of adjusting it before it goes to the final. Is this acceptable / feasible?

@sreten: thanks. your comments are sharp as usual throughout the forum. May I profit of this attitute to pose two related question?
- The project you pointed me at is interesting, but I fear the backfiring bassreflex port when placed too close to a wall. Am I wrong?
- When oriented on multi-way I had almost decided to go for Wilmslow The Rhythm King. I see you was interested in it also, some time ago. But then I read some comment about a badly (overcomplex) designed xover and then left it apart. But this would suit exactly my need I believe. Any comments / knowledge? I would be very interested in getting your opinion.
- so my current perspective was towards a closed box, fullrange. To minimize possible issues / need for adjusting and tweaking. I know is less fun but ... this is the time I have. If I will see the need for more bass in the future ...

@HM: nice jobs and excellent site! I'd rather avoid horns for a number of reasone ...

Many thanks again.

Kind regards.

C.
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Old 18th September 2012, 11:02 AM   #7
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

HIFICRITIC, audio review magazine, hi fi critic see TRK part 1 and part 2.

The x/o is not poor and is not overly complex. Is a near wall design.

Quote:
The BMR's do settle for a little while the best balance is found
by carefully angling them inwards a few degrees at a time from
a straight ahead position , checking on stereo focus.

They major on clarity immediacy and timing but there is
some mild roughness in the uppermid and high treble.

If the system and room acoustic seems unsympathetic
the series resistor to the mid can be increased in small
stages to soften the tonal balance, say 0.22 ohms a time.
My only concern is as usual for Wilmslow Audio kit its way overpriced.

PE have stopped selling a near identical driver :
HiWave HIBM85C20-4/DD 4" BMR Full-Range Square Speaker 4 Ohm 297-2150
A much cheaper clone would have been on the cards ....

rgds, sreten.

The rear port of the Tarkus is not an issue far field.
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When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow
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Old 18th September 2012, 12:22 PM   #8
kendt is offline kendt  Canada
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Yes the unit connects to your source before amplification however if your using an integrated amp then it may not be suitable. It will make changes to the signal before it is amplified but you need to have separate amps for each of the signals coming out of the unit.
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Old 18th September 2012, 12:33 PM   #9
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Many thanks again, very helpful.
I was rather sure of the unsuitability of the dsp way in my chain (I don't want to change it, at least in the short term).

Thanks for explanation on TRK xover. It sounds very reasonable. This might put this loudspeaker again in my top three list.

Any suggestion on best FR closed cabinet project, just to ... close the loop?

Best regards,

C.
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Old 18th September 2012, 12:48 PM   #10
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

The Seas with a filter is probably your best FR bet but boy does it beam .....
Like most bigger FR's you'll only have one decent listening position .....

rgds, sreten.
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When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 18th September 2012 at 12:51 PM.
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