Those are Great! If they work well that's even a Bonus.
Regards to your desire for a decent multi driver:
Do you have an unquenchable urge to DIY??
IF not.. Then respectfully suggest looking at a (used even
pair of Vandersteen 2Ce's (Or better). These, goofy looking things, when fitted with a min 100/150w 'clean' amplifier are genuinely impressive speakers.
IMO as good as one can get without jumping into the serious coin levels.
FAR better than a pair of Lowthers I wasted 2+ years 'fooling' with :
Audition a pair. ?. if only for curiosity/ basic reference.
Regards to your desire for a decent multi driver:
Do you have an unquenchable urge to DIY??
IF not.. Then respectfully suggest looking at a (used even
pair of Vandersteen 2Ce's (Or better). These, goofy looking things, when fitted with a min 100/150w 'clean' amplifier are genuinely impressive speakers. IMO as good as one can get without jumping into the serious coin levels.
FAR better than a pair of Lowthers I wasted 2+ years 'fooling' with :
Audition a pair. ?. if only for curiosity/ basic reference.
Those are Great! If they work well that's even a Bonus.
Regards to your desire for a decent multi driver:
Do you have an unquenchable urge to DIY??
IF not.. Then respectfully suggest looking at a (used even
IMO as good as one can get without jumping into the serious coin levels.
FAR better than a pair of Lowthers I wasted 2+ years 'fooling' with :
Audition a pair. ?. if only for curiosity/ basic reference.
Honesty, No, I have no real desire to do it myself. I just cant afford what I want. I have decent amps and eventually will grab a tube amp of some sort to power the FRs.
Fair enough.
A wee story tho
A good friend has been Lusting after a Porsche 911 for 40! years.
Always claiming poverty. Notwithstanding that the local Dealer always has a couple or 6 used ones available for the same price as a new Accord.
Certainly not free, but affordable if one has a 36 month life expectancy.
In the ensuing decades he has spent many tens of $ thousands, years of weekend and evening work dicking around with his beater cars.
In the belief/hope of Diy ing a 'Porsche beater' ... As if.
End result he still has No Money, is 40 years older and still No Porsche. Laughable waste of a lifetime lust imo.. if it wasn't so pathetic.
PS: Vandy's 2 ce's run ~$1k used, last time I looked. A DIY effort will run at least half of that.. likely more by the 3rd 'try'.
IMO don't be lusting after tube amps
A wee story tho
A good friend has been Lusting after a Porsche 911 for 40! years.
Always claiming poverty. Notwithstanding that the local Dealer always has a couple or 6 used ones available for the same price as a new Accord.
Certainly not free, but affordable if one has a 36 month life expectancy.
In the ensuing decades he has spent many tens of $ thousands, years of weekend and evening work dicking around with his beater cars.
In the belief/hope of Diy ing a 'Porsche beater' ... As if
. End result he still has No Money, is 40 years older and still No Porsche. Laughable waste of a lifetime lust imo.. if it wasn't so pathetic.
PS: Vandy's 2 ce's run ~$1k used, last time I looked. A DIY effort will run at least half of that.. likely more by the 3rd 'try'.
IMO don't be lusting after tube amps
Fair enough.
A wee story tho
A good friend has been Lusting after a Porsche 911 for 40! years.
Always claiming poverty. Notwithstanding that the local Dealer always has a couple or 6 used ones available for the same price as a new Accord.
Certainly not free, but affordable if one has a 36 month life expectancy.
In the ensuing decades he has spent many tens of $ thousands, years of weekend and evening work dicking around with his beater cars.
In the belief/hope of Diy ing a 'Porsche beater' ... As if
End result he still has No Money, is 40 years older and still No Porsche. Laughable waste of a lifetime lust imo.. if it wasn't so pathetic.
well maybe he's had 40yrs of fun playing with his DIY beaters, and I'd wager the auto geeks (no me) could nominate many brands of "lesser" vehicles with higher lifetime mileage and lower operating costs than a 911
The Vandy's lower sensitivity and 4-way XO & driver configuration would certainly shorten the list of tube amps capable of squeezing all the juice from the lemon.PS: Vandy's 2 ce's run ~$1k used, last time I looked. A DIY effort will run at least half of that.. likely more by the 3rd 'try'.
IMO don't be lusting after tube amps
The only pair of these that I've heard was over 10yrs ago, driven IINM by Quicksilver Mini Mite mono blocks (25W P/P?) - frankly an altogether "meh" experience, but of course, YMMV, and a higher power SS amp could be all these puppies need.
Everyone, I guess a reminder is needed. A Linkwitz transform is ONLY for low Q sealed cabinets. Doing bass extension on any other system is not an LT, and also not too smart. It may seem like a bother, but he will explain it to you on his site.
Fair enough.
A wee story tho
A good friend has been Lusting after a Porsche 911 for 40! years.
Always claiming poverty. Notwithstanding that the local Dealer always has a couple or 6 used ones available for the same price as a new Accord.
Certainly not free, but affordable if one has a 36 month life expectancy.
In the ensuing decades he has spent many tens of $ thousands, years of weekend and evening work dicking around with his beater cars.
In the belief/hope of Diy ing a 'Porsche beater' ... As if
End result he still has No Money, is 40 years older and still No Porsche. Laughable waste of a lifetime lust imo.. if it wasn't so pathetic.
PS: Vandy's 2 ce's run ~$1k used, last time I looked. A DIY effort will run at least half of that.. likely more by the 3rd 'try'.
IMO don't be lusting after tube amps
This might be the best advise ever given on this "DIY" forum. I too desire "audio nirvana" and am still interested in creating my own creation: "Audio Nirvana"!
I've owned a Porsche 930 Turbo as well as an AMG SL55: I'd never consider a "highly modified" Rice rocket as an alternative. I currently own a pair of Infinity Kappa 8's, Infinity RSIIb and a pair that I highly regard Renaissance 80's (others as well). The Kappa's need way too much amperage (Currently using a "pair" of Aragon 8008 amps > just to run them) the bass will kick you in the A$$ though (can you say: "Tight")!
The RSIIb (my pick for the best ever Infinity produced speakers) are running on a Sansui G7700-120Wpc w/ a ADC equalizer & a Pioneer RGII sound processor and sound great as well (I almost tried to replace these w/ a pair of Infinity RSI but, honestly the RSII sound better (period)!
I have (had) the Renaissance 80's running w/ a Jolida 302b 50Wpc tube amp (no audio processor or equalizer) and sound fantastic as well but, (I recently upgraded to a Jolida 502b at the 65Wpc rating) I'm afraid that I'm going to "over (under) drive" them and "burn" some of the components. I've seen a lot of "full range" speakers & box designs that I had previously considered but, having read this particular post: I might just stick w/ what I have and spare myself the "2 years" of frustration?
I love the Jolida (Golden Lion kt88) 65Wpc amp but, it's at the very bottom of what it takes to run the Renaissance 80's. I'm looking for a speaker that will re-produce the sound of the "Ren 80's w/o the concern of burning componants" but, after reading this post: It sounds like I'm "chasing my tail"? Any opinions ? -Davis
Here is a YouTube post of my Ren80's w/ a Jolida 302b 50Wpc amp: https://youtu.be/Pp2DuUza3Ys
Say what you will about the "euphonic distortion pattern" of tube amps in general, with a sensitivity of 87dB and a less than simple XO, even at 65W your Jolida is at the lower end of the Infinity's recommended power ratings ( i.e. 75-350W).
Having owned a variety of tubed amps from 2A3 SET to a Jolida302B myself, the attraction of them in combination with a FR system of higher sensitivity than the 80's is understandable, but your goal of "nirvana" or even a glimpse of satori might be more easily / affordably accomplished with a much higher power SS amp. Of course, it sounds like the other selections in your harem indicate that's probably not a surprise.
Having owned a variety of tubed amps from 2A3 SET to a Jolida302B myself, the attraction of them in combination with a FR system of higher sensitivity than the 80's is understandable, but your goal of "nirvana" or even a glimpse of satori might be more easily / affordably accomplished with a much higher power SS amp. Of course, it sounds like the other selections in your harem indicate that's probably not a surprise.
I'm sending the Jolida 502b to "Affordable audio" tomorrow for the "full" upgrade package here: Modifications for the Jolida JD 302/502 [JD 302/502 Mod] - $350.00 : Affordable Audio Playa del Rey California in West Los Angeles - High-end, | AA TECH DESIGN |
Mitch assures me that the Jolida (502) will be able to power and run the Renn 80's w/o any problems: but, my question is rather directed to; Will I ever be able to get a better "full range sound" audio experience w/ a multi-driver speaker vs a single "Full range" driver platform (as many suggest here on the DIY forum)?
I'm not "bashing" full range at all but, rather trying to educate myself to which is a better listening experience? -Davis
I think you've posed the question with which most of us FR diehards have wrestled for years. Short answer is probably -" it depends?" on more than a single factor
I'd owned a fair number of conventional monkey-coffin or even slightly esoteric speakers in the approx 40yrs before I started building -now mostly FR or "FAST"s (still hate that acronym, but most of us understand what it means). For most of that past decade, it's been the learning curve, complexity of designing, and cost of doing a multi-way passive XO "correctly" that has has kept me away. But with the recent availability of DSP solutions such as miniDSP, it's a whole different world of far less hurt, and unless I simply get tired of building anything, I might yet dip my toe in that deeper pool.
Will the tweaked out Jolida deliver all you want? maybe
I'd owned a fair number of conventional monkey-coffin or even slightly esoteric speakers in the approx 40yrs before I started building -now mostly FR or "FAST"s (still hate that acronym, but most of us understand what it means). For most of that past decade, it's been the learning curve, complexity of designing, and cost of doing a multi-way passive XO "correctly" that has has kept me away. But with the recent availability of DSP solutions such as miniDSP, it's a whole different world of far less hurt, and unless I simply get tired of building anything, I might yet dip my toe in that deeper pool.
Will the tweaked out Jolida deliver all you want? maybe
According to Mitch the 302/502 is a solid design and has stated that w/ this upgrade; "We do the following mods: Hovland Musicaps for the coupling stage. Caddock film resistors. Mills power resistors where needed. International Rectifier Hexfreds. For the level 2 mod, we also replace all cathode and plate resistors, bypass the power supply caps with Solens, and upgrade the diode bridge with 1200V 16A Hexfreds.", beyond that the Jolida "Circuit" is a "solid" design that doesn't need any more to get it to preform to it's fullest potential?!?
Mitch is regarded locally (So, Cal) as the tube amp go to guy: I tend to trust his opinion?
Some time ago (before the divorce): I had a pair of Kappa 9's & a pair of Martin Logan Sequel II and I've gone through every possible Amp combination I could find: Adcom mono's (the Kappa 9's actually sounded good w/ these, though they are crap (IMO), Bryston (harsh), B&K st150 (way-way under powered), Krell 250M (lacking of range), PS audio Stereo 250(Robust but, no range of audio) and the Aragon. Over the period of two+ years I could not find a combination that would make either pair of speakers proper, (quality, authority, robust, subtle, accurate) sound was just not accurate or tight.
The best combination I came up w/ where the Kappa 9's w/ a pair of Aragon 8008 200Wps @ 8Ohm (that's like 800wps total @ 4Ohm). I finally replaced the Kappa 9's w/ a pair of Kappa 8's (the same Aragon 8008 amps), and now they sound 9.7 out of 10 vs about a 8.7 out of 10 on the Kappa 9's (the 9's are way over rated junk >IMO).
With the Logan Sequel II the Audio research Ref 300 Mono's sounded the best but, still not quite there: "no authority, robust, sonic lows or subtle > no punch " but, accurate in the "definition" of the sound produced. Quite but, accurate; I attribute some of this to the Logan's design.
That left me w/ an appreciation of the Audio research "tube" amps (sold during the divorce). I now have a new appreciation of the Jolida "tube" amp as it reproduces the same "sonic" sound no matter what the volume level (blasting vs mellow listening). Something a SS amp (IMO) can't do. "SS" amp's have a "sweet spot" as far as volume vs accuracy; you have to find that sweet spot of volume+definition?!?
A friend of mine recently offered me a pair of the ARC Ref 300 for $7k that I passed on (about 1/4 the price of what they cost new): w/ the intent of possibly building a "full range" diy system that could reproduce just as good a sound but, at an "inth" of the price, full range and using my little Jolida.
I think I've earlier stated; I'm just here to learn. I appreciate all of the feedback from the members that have replied to my post. I'm here to see if I can't do a "DIY" system that will reproduce the "ultimate", clean yet robust - full range sound speaker system that I would just enjoy listening to.
Regarding "full range" I recently watched this video (youtube) and found the sound (fully-compressed) to be amazing: https://youtu.be/GhGVVBypnwU
The sheer sound of this "full range" w/ + a tweeter-resistor (add on) just blow's the mind. After having watched (listened) to that how can you "not" pursue any possible "better" audio options?
I'm not un-happy w/ the (in almost every room) sound systems that I have but, if there is something out there that I would enjoy more; it's an injustice to "not" investigate alternatives, no? -Davis
I've owned a 302 since about 2000, and while not to dispute Mitch's opinion as a "solid" design, there are no doubt other topologies capable of equal or superior performance with either EL34/6CA7 or 6550, KT88 with which the 302/502 can be fitted.
But I don't think that really the point - I interpret two questions here really - both of which from my experience are likely to have a similar answer:
1) can I get the same "audio experience" with a single driver/full range speaker as with several of my more elaborate and power thirsty multi-ways? - maybe
2) If I decide to keep the Infinity 80's, can the modified Jolida power them safely without risk of excessive clipping damaging components ?
I assume you mean in the speaker? - again, maybe - but being familiar enough with other complex crossover multiways from as far back as Dahlquist DQ10 and Linn DMS Isobarik, I'd be inclined to power levels near the higher end of manufacturer's recommended range.
But I don't think that really the point - I interpret two questions here really - both of which from my experience are likely to have a similar answer:
1) can I get the same "audio experience" with a single driver/full range speaker as with several of my more elaborate and power thirsty multi-ways? - maybe
2) If I decide to keep the Infinity 80's, can the modified Jolida power them safely without risk of excessive clipping damaging components ?
I assume you mean in the speaker? - again, maybe - but being familiar enough with other complex crossover multiways from as far back as Dahlquist DQ10 and Linn DMS Isobarik, I'd be inclined to power levels near the higher end of manufacturer's recommended range.
Better than most, but i still start scheming every time i see the schema. Even as is it really would benefit from a CCS under the LTP.
dave
Attachments
Re#0 I've not owned a pair of Dahlquist but, have had a few pairs of Linn: I (personally) found the Linn to be very over rated / detailed but, very lacking in SPL > walk across the room and they sound like Bose!
Re#2. My 502 does have the (Golden Lion) KT88's: & after up-grade I hope it will indeed power the Ren 80's w/o possible damage. It sounds fantastic w/ the 502 > running the KT88's but, I believe after some upgrades It might even sound (not louder > I'm not so much in to "loud" but, just "room filling" accurate) better & cleaner w/ more accuracy!?!
Re#1. "I do assume the speaker is what I'm concerned in possible damage.": The Infinity Ren 80's were a very "limited run" of production using a "High energy" EMIM & EMIT which are almost impossible to find on the "used / ebay" market. The standard EMIM & EMIT are easily replaced.
My biggest question: Do you "DIY" guys think I can build a
"single driver-FR" speaker that comes close or surpasses the sonic delivery (range & authority) of my "multi-component-High energy demanding" speakers? Some people suggest that: multi-component (2 way / 3 way speakers & cross overs) always produce a "overlap" experience that will never reproduce the "true" sound of a "Full range" speaker!?!
Out of all (I currently own) I like my RSIIb the most but, that's running through a 120Wpc Sansui G-7700, Pioneer RG-3 sound processor & a ACD SS-415x equalizer (almost a full sound studio): pull those extra pieces and the whole system sounds very "bland", Unlike the 502 w/ Ren 80 > sound very "full" / source, Amp & speakers only.
I find that I can get a very similar "very pure" sound running just the Jolida w/ the Ren 80's > no Bass adjustment knob, no treble adjustment knob, no sound processor, no Eq. Just a very pleasant every "octave" addressed & presented sound.
However; I know I'm risking damage to the Ren 80's if I push them too hard. Only problem: the Jolids doesn't (but, almost) produce the "authority" of sound. In contrast: it seems to present a much larger "sound stage" (I can actually hear where each instrument is placed in it's recorded stage). It's not about "stereo" but, the actual "sound stage" itself.
Thus; I find the Tube amp to be superior in (sound) quality but, just a tad lacking in "authority". Therefore: I'm looking for a "full-range" speaker that can reproduce the same sound, quality & authority but, running the Jolida. It seems to me that a "FR" speaker in the proper enclosure should reproduce: 1) a full range sound 2) require quite a bit (lot) less amperage.
My real question here is; is there anyone that would/could recommend such a "single element - Full range - speaker enclosure & driver" that I should endeavor ? -Davis
P.S. Special thanks to Chrisb & Planet10 for your replies & guidance !
Sorry; it's been a while since I've visited this thread but still, I'd like to contribute:
I got the "Moded" Jolida 502b back about a month & a half ago. I've had a considerable time (yes, it took that much) to try some different configurations. I'm still using the Infinity Renaissance 80 speakers & the 65Wpc Amp will definitely power them.
After I got the "modded" amp back it did indeed sound much better. There was no more "authority" than the stock 502 but, the soundstage widened, all of the instruments now sounded placed (in time & space) where they were supposed to be. Where I found the very best improvement was w/ the Vocals (Male & female) sound much more clean, clear, (sometimes) harsh but, natural.
I wanted to improve on the sound (it still just wasn't Authoritative enough) so, I tried a Pioneer RG-3 "Range expander": bad move!
It works great w/ my transistor (Aragon 8008ST) based Amp's (I've got a DBX 4BX running w/ my RSIIb & it's "night & day") but, ruined the "true" sound you get from a "valve" Tube Amp.
The "range expander" essentially takes "low" signals and drops them a bit & conversely: it takes the "punchy" (louder) sounds and elevates them a bit. The end result: If you have your main instrument; a Sax, Piano or vocal, it will make them the main focus of the "end stage" of your music output.
Vocals, Piano, Sax were the main sound and all else was basically so subtle it made it sound like A.M. vs F.M. > Very "muted, almost: in your face" music quality!
I loved the clean & descript "highs" as well as the (now) "natural" Vocals but, what was lacking were the Bass notes; they were there, clean & well defined but, not as authoritative as I wanted them to be (you should feel them as well as hear them), no?
I considered adding a "sub-woofer" but, I would have had to return the amp to Mitch to change one of the inputs to a "low level" output (which he can & will do), I didn't want to run a "Sub" using the "high level" outputs (the speakers first pass through the Sub & then output to the speakers, my Miller and Kreisel V 125 allow this but > Just sounds kinda messy, doesn't it?).
Finally; I pulled the (now not used) Infinity Contour Crossover box that came w/ my RSIIb. It allows all frequencies to pass through (Via RCA cables) w/ only the Low frequency sounds to be manipulated. It has a "Gain" adjustment as well as a "contour" adjustment.
I've got the "Gain" at about the 1 O'clock position & the Contour (I assume "low range frequency") at about the 2 O'clock position: Everything else the same as before (Jolida 502b, Denon DCD425 Cd player & Infinity Renaissance 80).
Now listening, the system (as a whole) seems to fill all of the gaps: the Bass is tight & pronounced (you can see a glass of water shake > a lot), the Mids sound vibrant (as they should) & the highs are also well presented.
I'm curious (at this point) if a "Contour crossover" box would make any difference in a "FAST" system. Some seem to be either lacking in the "highs" or "lows"?
Either way: I think I've maybe > maybe found the perfect balance of "mid-range" Tube amp w/ very - very accurate sound & with a less than efficient speaker.
-Davis
P.S. I've looked for another Infinity Bass Contour box and the original Infinity boxes are almost non-existent or very ($900.00) expensive. Alternatively there are other "Bass" contour control boxes and their just about as expensive!?!
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