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Old 31st July 2012, 06:53 PM   #1
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Default Please recommend a desktop fullranger?

Ok, so i think for nearfield use such as at my desktop, a fullranger might offer the highest performance potential. Arrangement would need to be about 3.5 ft of seperation between the two and about three ft to my listening position. They'll be on the desktop but enclosure depth is limited to 6" or less but they can be tall at 16", allowing for required volume. There won't be much room behind the enclosure ( an inch or less) so there's gonna be some boundary gain to the midbass. These don't need to play that low as there's a DIY 10" Peerless XLS sealed sub under the desk. Also sensitivity isn't an issue, there;s 120wpc on tap. I f the speakers weren't toed in, the listening axis would be roughly 45 degrees, so design that's flat around 30-40 degrees would be the best compromise but i can certainly toe them in if needed. I've built plenty of multi ways, so there's already a good understanding of speaker design if that helps. Thanx
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Old 31st July 2012, 07:23 PM   #2
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
Ok, so i think for nearfield use such as at my desktop, a fullranger might offer the highest performance potential. Arrangement would need to be about 3.5 ft of seperation between the two and about three ft to my listening position. They'll be on the desktop but enclosure depth is limited to 6" or less but they can be tall at 16", allowing for required volume. There won't be much room behind the enclosure ( an inch or less) so there's gonna be some boundary gain to the midbass. These don't need to play that low as there's a DIY 10" Peerless XLS sealed sub under the desk. Also sensitivity isn't an issue, there;s 120wpc on tap. I f the speakers weren't toed in, the listening axis would be roughly 45 degrees, so design that's flat around 30-40 degrees would be the best compromise but i can certainly toe them in if needed. I've built plenty of multi ways, so there's already a good understanding of speaker design if that helps. Thanx


what's the budget for drivers? and for this close a primary listening position, I'd stick with the (nominal) 4" weight class

my short list:

Mark Audio CHR70.3 (metal, could be a bit crisp for very near-field listening without filter / BSC etc) @$36 ea (Madisound)

for a softer "classic FR" tonality in upper mids/top CHP70.2 (natural/tan paper currently @ $28.80 Madisound), the black paper version $36


Alpair 6 M or P - based on my listening a substantially better sounding driver than the CHP/R - $54 ea,

Alpair 7.3 - head an shoulders above the previous list $85 ea


Fostex FF125WK - I don't hear any issues with the top end, even with untreated versions, but some might - $54.50 ea


but wait, there's more ....

plenny other recommendations to follow, no doubt (such as various other Fostex, Fountek, SEAS, TangBands, etc)

bueller?
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Old 31st July 2012, 07:29 PM   #3
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I am very happy with my CT218 speakers build around a tb-w4 655 you could do a BR version. Cheap and I think it sounds brilliant
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Old 31st July 2012, 08:08 PM   #4
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
what's the budget for drivers? and for this close a primary listening position, I'd stick with the (nominal) 4" weight class

my short list:

Mark Audio CHR70.3 (metal, could be a bit crisp for very near-field listening without filter / BSC etc) @$36 ea (Madisound)

for a softer "classic FR" tonality in upper mids/top CHP70.2 (natural/tan paper currently @ $28.80 Madisound), the black paper version $36


Alpair 6 M or P - based on my listening a substantially better sounding driver than the CHP/R - $54 ea,

Alpair 7.3 - head an shoulders above the previous list $85 ea


Fostex FF125WK - I don't hear any issues with the top end, even with untreated versions, but some might - $54.50 ea


but wait, there's more ....

plenny other recommendations to follow, no doubt (such as various other Fostex, Fountek, SEAS, TangBands, etc)

bueller?
If you think the ff125 does not have top end issues, you need to check out "What's the attraction". It has horrible problems, but it looks like it can be tamed. Long project. I would pick the one size smaller.
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Old 31st July 2012, 08:24 PM   #5
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Chris did place a caveat there. Generally speaking I don't think he gives two hoots about what a graph looks like if he likes the sound.

FWIW, I'm currently running FF85Ks in uFonkens (old versions) as my desktop speakers, with zero to complain about, and the new ones should be an improvement -I've got them here, just a question of having time to build the things. No useable bass, but for desktop use a/ you'd be dreaming if you expected any, and b/ you don't miss it. The 85 is an excellent little driver within its design brief, and the resistively loaded box works very well with it. If bigger is required, I'd echo the comments made re the MA drivers. Given the use in question, I'd suggest running sealed, or resistive / aperiodic cabinets. Some of the smaller TB units are worth considering; ditto the 3 1/2in Vifa units.

You're going to be doing v. well to get flat output at 45 degrees off-axis. That's a heck of a challenge for many 3/4in tweeters, let alone a 3in + widebander.

Last edited by Scottmoose; 31st July 2012 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 31st July 2012, 08:37 PM   #6
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Graphs only confirm what we hear and are an aid in the design process. INHO, they sound terrible. I listened first. You might look further forward in the thread. Now, as Planet10 has shown, they can be tamed, and as ODoug has been working on them, get quite reasonable bass. A bit big for a desktop though unless you were clever to use the wasted space behind the monitor. The smaller unit seems to be better behaved.
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Old 31st July 2012, 09:12 PM   #7
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I have seen the thread. And read it. And am aware of the value of measurements, since I've designed one or two speakers myself in the past. You appear to have missed the point: Chris clearly states regarding the Fostex FF125WK

Quote:
I don't hear any issues with the top end, even with untreated versions, but some might
By definition, since Chris is happy enough with the top end of the 125, they do not automatically have 'horrible problems' for all listeners, irrespective of what you think, or I think for that matter, or however many deviations from a nominally flat response an FR graph might indicate.

Last edited by Scottmoose; 31st July 2012 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 31st July 2012, 09:20 PM   #8
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Graphs only confirm what we hear and are an aid in the design process. INHO, they sound terrible. I listened first. You might look further forward in the thread. Now, as Planet10 has shown, they can be tamed, and as ODoug has been working on them, get quite reasonable bass. A bit big for a desktop though unless you were clever to use the wasted space behind the monitor. The smaller unit seems to be better behaved.

the model smaller than the 125 would be the 105, and for lotsa reasons, we've not paid a lot of attention to this particular size of Fostex FR driver since the days of the ole RS40-1197 (over 10yrs now since our first dance with that one) - but the next size down again i.e. FF85K that Scott mentioned, and the new 85WK, are pretty damned special indeed

and as Scott noted above, I tend not to particularly care about what measurements "show / don't show" - some of the least emotionally involving / underwhelming commercial and enthusiast built speakers I've heard have great measured specs, modeled results or "engineering chops"

Between my work related hearing loss, chronic tinnitus, and who knows what other factors, I don't hear all of the issues with some of these drivers that irritate more sensitive listeners ( Bigun, yourself, and others). OTOH there are some systems that are perfectly acceptable to many that for a variety of reasons don't work for me - many Lowthers, anything by Klipsch that I've yet heard, many ESL / dynamic hybrids, Magnepans, B&W Diamond N800 Diamond series, AudioNote E -- yada yada


edit:

and as for taming the "horrible problems" that you experienced withe the FF125WK, be advised that I do have a passing awareness of treatment methods for small FR drivers that evolved over the past 10 or so years, including the Planet10 "tri-foil" formulation for FE126/7 (based on previous art by ?Mark McKenzie?), as well as Bud Purvine's EnABL - the latter definitely a case of "unproven by current science / theory" to everyone's satisfaction, but something that many folks (myself included) can hear elicit an improvement, while others don't
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Last edited by chrisb; 31st July 2012 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 31st July 2012, 09:37 PM   #9
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
Ok, so i think for nearfield use such as at my desktop,
a fullranger might offer the highest performance potential.
Thanx
Hi,

Except it probably doesn't, depending. 3"ers make the best FR's
but dispersion wise can't touch adding a tweeter, or 4"+ tweeter.

YMMV but the reduced BSC version of this :
Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini
Possibly built sealed, is hard to better.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 31st July 2012, 10:01 PM   #10
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by sreten View Post
Hi,

Except it probably doesn't, depending. 3"ers make the best FR's
but dispersion wise can't touch adding a tweeter, or 4"+ tweeter.

YMMV but the reduced BSC version of this :
Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini
Possibly built sealed, is hard to better.

rgds, sreten.

Fair enough, and the Zaph ZBM4 may be quite delightful, but how significant is off-axis dispersion to a desk-top installation where the primary listening position is given as approximately the apex of a 3ft equilateral triangle, and enclosure dimensions constraints are implied such that any required toe-in is mentioned in the original post appears as a non-issue?
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