Ok, so i think for nearfield use such as at my desktop, a fullranger might offer the highest performance potential. Arrangement would need to be about 3.5 ft of seperation between the two and about three ft to my listening position. They'll be on the desktop but enclosure depth is limited to 6" or less but they can be tall at 16", allowing for required volume. There won't be much room behind the enclosure ( an inch or less) so there's gonna be some boundary gain to the midbass. These don't need to play that low as there's a DIY 10" Peerless XLS sealed sub under the desk. Also sensitivity isn't an issue, there;s 120wpc on tap. I f the speakers weren't toed in, the listening axis would be roughly 45 degrees, so design that's flat around 30-40 degrees would be the best compromise but i can certainly toe them in if needed. I've built plenty of multi ways, so there's already a good understanding of speaker design if that helps. Thanx
what's the budget for drivers? and for this close a primary listening position, I'd stick with the (nominal) 4" weight class
my short list:
Mark Audio CHR70.3 (metal, could be a bit crisp for very near-field listening without filter / BSC etc) @$36 ea (Madisound)
for a softer "classic FR" tonality in upper mids/top CHP70.2 (natural/tan paper currently @ $28.80 Madisound), the black paper version $36
Alpair 6 M or P - based on my listening a substantially better sounding driver than the CHP/R - $54 ea,
Alpair 7.3 - head an shoulders above the previous list $85 ea
Fostex FF125WK - I don't hear any issues with the top end, even with untreated versions, but some might - $54.50 ea
but wait, there's more ....
plenny other recommendations to follow, no doubt (such as various other Fostex, Fountek, SEAS, TangBands, etc)
bueller?
If you think the ff125 does not have top end issues, you need to check out "What's the attraction". It has horrible problems, but it looks like it can be tamed. Long project. I would pick the one size smaller.
Chris did place a caveat there. Generally speaking I don't think he gives two hoots about what a graph looks like if he likes the sound. 
FWIW, I'm currently running FF85Ks in uFonkens (old versions) as my desktop speakers, with zero to complain about, and the new ones should be an improvement -I've got them here, just a question of having time to build the things. No useable bass, but for desktop use a/ you'd be dreaming if you expected any, and b/ you don't miss it. The 85 is an excellent little driver within its design brief, and the resistively loaded box works very well with it. If bigger is required, I'd echo the comments made re the MA drivers. Given the use in question, I'd suggest running sealed, or resistive / aperiodic cabinets. Some of the smaller TB units are worth considering; ditto the 3 1/2in Vifa units.
You're going to be doing v. well to get flat output at 45 degrees off-axis. That's a heck of a challenge for many 3/4in tweeters, let alone a 3in + widebander.
FWIW, I'm currently running FF85Ks in uFonkens (old versions) as my desktop speakers, with zero to complain about, and the new ones should be an improvement -I've got them here, just a question of having time to build the things. No useable bass, but for desktop use a/ you'd be dreaming if you expected any, and b/ you don't miss it. The 85 is an excellent little driver within its design brief, and the resistively loaded box works very well with it. If bigger is required, I'd echo the comments made re the MA drivers. Given the use in question, I'd suggest running sealed, or resistive / aperiodic cabinets. Some of the smaller TB units are worth considering; ditto the 3 1/2in Vifa units.
You're going to be doing v. well to get flat output at 45 degrees off-axis. That's a heck of a challenge for many 3/4in tweeters, let alone a 3in + widebander.
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Graphs only confirm what we hear and are an aid in the design process. INHO, they sound terrible. I listened first. You might look further forward in the thread. Now, as Planet10 has shown, they can be tamed, and as ODoug has been working on them, get quite reasonable bass. A bit big for a desktop though unless you were clever to use the wasted space behind the monitor. The smaller unit seems to be better behaved.
I have seen the thread. And read it. And am aware of the value of measurements, since I've designed one or two speakers myself in the past. You appear to have missed the point: Chris clearly states regarding the Fostex FF125WK
By definition, since Chris is happy enough with the top end of the 125, they do not automatically have 'horrible problems' for all listeners, irrespective of what you think, or I think for that matter, or however many deviations from a nominally flat response an FR graph might indicate.
By definition, since Chris is happy enough with the top end of the 125, they do not automatically have 'horrible problems' for all listeners, irrespective of what you think, or I think for that matter, or however many deviations from a nominally flat response an FR graph might indicate.
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the model smaller than the 125 would be the 105, and for lotsa reasons, we've not paid a lot of attention to this particular size of Fostex FR driver since the days of the ole RS40-1197 (over 10yrs now since our first dance with that one) - but the next size down again i.e. FF85K that Scott mentioned, and the new 85WK, are pretty damned special indeed
and as Scott noted above, I tend not to particularly care about what measurements "show / don't show" - some of the least emotionally involving / underwhelming commercial and enthusiast built speakers I've heard have great measured specs, modeled results or "engineering chops"
Between my work related hearing loss, chronic tinnitus, and who knows what other factors, I don't hear all of the issues with some of these drivers that irritate more sensitive listeners ( Bigun, yourself, and others). OTOH there are some systems that are perfectly acceptable to many that for a variety of reasons don't work for me - many Lowthers, anything by Klipsch that I've yet heard, many ESL / dynamic hybrids, Magnepans, B&W Diamond N800 Diamond series, AudioNote E -- yada yada
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and as for taming the "horrible problems" that you experienced withe the FF125WK, be advised that I do have a passing awareness of treatment methods for small FR drivers that evolved over the past 10 or so years, including the Planet10 "tri-foil" formulation for FE126/7 (based on previous art by ?Mark McKenzie?), as well as Bud Purvine's EnABL - the latter definitely a case of "unproven by current science / theory" to everyone's satisfaction, but something that many folks (myself included) can hear elicit an improvement, while others don't
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Hi,
Except it probably doesn't, depending. 3"ers make the best FR's
but dispersion wise can't touch adding a tweeter, or 4"+ tweeter.
YMMV but the reduced BSC version of this :
Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini
Possibly built sealed, is hard to better.
rgds, sreten.
Fair enough, and the Zaph ZBM4 may be quite delightful, but how significant is off-axis dispersion to a desk-top installation where the primary listening position is given as approximately the apex of a 3ft equilateral triangle, and enclosure dimensions constraints are implied such that any required toe-in is mentioned in the original post appears as a non-issue?
I'd probobly agree with you if we weren't talking about such a nearfield application. I've built and used quite a few small 2 ways and at three feet and less, the drivers don't sum as well as at 5 feet. The alternatives are a 3" Fullranger which I agree is the optimal size, a coincident/coax, or running a B&G Neo8 from 800 up to 20khz with a bass unit below. There's been quite a bit of favorable opinions on both the Fountek and new Fostex 3". Your thoughts?
Chris, yes I have read the ideas on treatment. You can see my playing with foam to verify the issues, and I have already mentioned I am investigating some other materials on some Sony drivers. (cheap). The baskets maybe so bad and the cones already treated that I am not learning as much as I hoped.
Understanding a bit about vibration, there is nothing pseudo science about the methods Planet10 is using. If they had several million dollars for laser inferometry measurement, it would be quite easy to understand. ( and they could get there quicker) This was discussed in AES as far back as you care to go. I remember several RCA papers on it. Experimentation is still a valid engineering method. I have not heard their drivers, but I have heard the 125 and the 125 with foam stuck all over it. The difference is big. That said, I would choose a driver without this problem next time. 105, 88, Mark...... I feel like we are doing the OEMs's job when we are having to mod $50 drivers with tricks that should be reserved for $2 parts. It's fun never the less.
Understanding a bit about vibration, there is nothing pseudo science about the methods Planet10 is using. If they had several million dollars for laser inferometry measurement, it would be quite easy to understand. ( and they could get there quicker) This was discussed in AES as far back as you care to go. I remember several RCA papers on it. Experimentation is still a valid engineering method. I have not heard their drivers, but I have heard the 125 and the 125 with foam stuck all over it. The difference is big. That said, I would choose a driver without this problem next time. 105, 88, Mark...... I feel like we are doing the OEMs's job when we are having to mod $50 drivers with tricks that should be reserved for $2 parts. It's fun never the less.
Actually laser interferometry may not be able to look at what we need to look at to determine what EnABL does. I'm guessing that a microFlown might be the more appropriate tool -- and to get the most out of it you'd need an anechoic facility, so a milliom bucks would be a budget facility.
dave
Hi,
Zaph is no slouch, he's posted vertical integration, but not bothered
with horizontal, because its simply not an issue. YMMV but Zaph
tends to get driver integration bang on, he knows his onions.
(He uses assymetry in the target responses to phase align the
drivers, which really only shows up in the vertical axis plots.)
As he himself stated, getting phase to match at x/o is difficult.
rgds, sreten.
not an uncommon occurrence with TB drivers, at least via Parts Express - "this driver no longer available" -
Hi,
BMR's (balanced/bending mode radiators) are an interesting proposition :
HiWave HIBM85C20-4/DD 4" BMR Full-Range Square Speaker 4 Ohm 297-2150
Combined with PC digital EQ (the topend is a bit wayward) could work, though
the basic response indicates no BSC would be needed, no EQ might work well.
rgds, sreten.
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Appreciating, but wanting to replace my Monsoon Planar desktops, I'd be curious how well the RS210HF would handle this - I've heard it works well up to 700 or 800Hz.
That being said, my BB ply just came in for the A6p's and RS210 waiting patiently in my basement for desktop duty.
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