Hi,
I'm new to diy audio and in my reading have found myself drawn to full range speakers in transmission line cabinets, but I've picked up a few hints (Bob Brines home page) that they may not be well suited to what I listen to: electronic/club DJs, pop/rock, jazz/blues - the club music being the concern.
Will a sub-woofer address any shortcoming FR/TL may otherwise demonstrate w/ electronic content? (Is crossing at 40Hz to ensure the sub gets zero content above 80Hz (psycho-location threshhold) crazy?)
My listening room is 11'x12' w/ a 9.5' ceiling. The clap test for room response has a bit of a ring to it, but I'm open to some acoustic treatment. My source will be my PC w/ deq/dxo either in software or hardware, I've got my eye on an AudioSector gain clone, and may add a tube buffer for flavor.
Advice and useful links appreciated.
Thanks,
-Rene
I'm new to diy audio and in my reading have found myself drawn to full range speakers in transmission line cabinets, but I've picked up a few hints (Bob Brines home page) that they may not be well suited to what I listen to: electronic/club DJs, pop/rock, jazz/blues - the club music being the concern.
Will a sub-woofer address any shortcoming FR/TL may otherwise demonstrate w/ electronic content? (Is crossing at 40Hz to ensure the sub gets zero content above 80Hz (psycho-location threshhold) crazy?)
My listening room is 11'x12' w/ a 9.5' ceiling. The clap test for room response has a bit of a ring to it, but I'm open to some acoustic treatment. My source will be my PC w/ deq/dxo either in software or hardware, I've got my eye on an AudioSector gain clone, and may add a tube buffer for flavor.
Advice and useful links appreciated.
Thanks,
-Rene
With this kind of repetitive music a RF driver will had a short life, you need a pro fullrange+Tweeter with a crossover.
Other option is a 15inches woofer and a FR, as the well know Alpha15A+Visaton B200 or other 8inches FR.
A FR is not suited to bass under 100Hz, the Alpha15A above is cut at 270 - 300Hz and pass to the B200.
Regards
Other option is a 15inches woofer and a FR, as the well know Alpha15A+Visaton B200 or other 8inches FR.
A FR is not suited to bass under 100Hz, the Alpha15A above is cut at 270 - 300Hz and pass to the B200.
Regards
- +2 to Cal's confirmation above - most of us "full-rangers" have dabbled with that approach, the key to our justification being that the XOs are low enough ( under 120Hz or so) that most of the lower midrange / upper mid-bass is still being handled by the wide-band driver;
-the AudioSector is a wonderful sounding piece;
- depending on your source and even more so the driver you decide on for the wide-band part of the system, you might not need any additional "flavoring" - to be completely honest, the only tube buffer "enhancer" I've heard so far was not much more than a distortion injection device - warm and fuzzy to be sure, but not clean or real - I'd far rather invest the extra in the real front end source / higher sampling rate player software or active line stage if deemed necessary to your application
- the room is small enough that a well matched system with a single 4-5" full range driver per side should be quite adequate if Hi-Passed and supported by actively powered woofers (which might well be less than 15")
Of course when you ask for advice on a forum such as this, don't be surprised if you get more opinions and recommendations than consensus
- we all have our own biases, and current favorites. That said, I think any list of candidates for such an application should include the Alpair 7.3 and 10.2, and Fostex FF125 for the widebanders.
Hi,
Crossing the sub at 40Hz is a bad idea: a FR driver won't go low enough to match up to it.
IMHO, to get the best out of a FR driver, asking even 80Hz (to meet a sub) is too low for decent dynamics.
Here's what I did:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/211913-fostex-tang-band.html
The concept is simple enough: using stereo woofers, you can cross over higher (I'm at 500Hz, which means baffle step compensation is usefully built in to the crossover) to give the FR driver a much easier time. The higher you take the crossover, the louder it'll go, but you've then got more problems getting the crossover exactly right so you can't hear it: the closer you get to the 1-5kHz range, the more difficult it gets - our ears are very sensitive to anomalies in that region. Lower down, its more difficult to detect: there's more margin for error.
HTH
Chris
Rene,
Already a wealth of good advice from the folks.
I have the ferrite version of the Tang Band sub drivers that Chris661 has. Along with a MA Alp 7.3 it worked like a charm in a bi-amped config.
The Alpair 7.3 does a very good job in resolving detail, ambience, etc in electronica - along with great midrange, the top is very clear and extened.
The subs were in simple 11"x11" ported cubes. The XO was set at 110 Hz using Foobar. I had 2 amps - Hypex UcD for the Alpair 7.3 and a Tripath amp for the TB subs. Alpair 7.3 with subwoofers did better than Alpir 12 with subwoofers - the air and detail of the Alp 7.3 in the P10 Mar-Ken 7.3 design was superior, integration with the 6.5 inch sub drivers was tighter. My room was ~250 sq with similar ceiling height. Didn't feel the need for more bass.
A word on the amplification - the sub drivers will need watts to shine. First we fed it a 50 watt/channel Tripath - not good. Then we tried the 90 watt/channel at 4 ohms HifimeDIY T4 amp - the subs came alive. We used 2 subs - so bass localization was not an issue.
We tried out stuff like Anjunadeep, Paul Oakenfold, John Digweed, BT - sounded real good to us.
Already a wealth of good advice from the folks.
I have the ferrite version of the Tang Band sub drivers that Chris661 has. Along with a MA Alp 7.3 it worked like a charm in a bi-amped config.
The Alpair 7.3 does a very good job in resolving detail, ambience, etc in electronica - along with great midrange, the top is very clear and extened.
The subs were in simple 11"x11" ported cubes. The XO was set at 110 Hz using Foobar. I had 2 amps - Hypex UcD for the Alpair 7.3 and a Tripath amp for the TB subs. Alpair 7.3 with subwoofers did better than Alpir 12 with subwoofers - the air and detail of the Alp 7.3 in the P10 Mar-Ken 7.3 design was superior, integration with the 6.5 inch sub drivers was tighter. My room was ~250 sq with similar ceiling height. Didn't feel the need for more bass.
A word on the amplification - the sub drivers will need watts to shine. First we fed it a 50 watt/channel Tripath - not good. Then we tried the 90 watt/channel at 4 ohms HifimeDIY T4 amp - the subs came alive. We used 2 subs - so bass localization was not an issue.
We tried out stuff like Anjunadeep, Paul Oakenfold, John Digweed, BT - sounded real good to us.
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Thanks for all of the responses so far.
Chris, you definitely have me looking beyond t-line cabinets. Given that I don't currently have any sort of shelf where the speakers will go, I'm still open to floor standing (hence, t-line) so long as the foot print remains small - otherwise I'm probably looking at stands if I end up w/ book shelf cabinets.
Re. position: my floor plan pretty much sucks for audio and I can't get the speakers more than a foot or so from the nearest wall (one is in a corner in front of a window, the other next to a doorway); listening position is against the opposite wall.
Re. crossover: I understand that a higher crossover generally makes things easier on the FR drivers but I'm not clear on what is actually problematic about crossing below 80Hz given that many FR drivers have Fs and F3 near 50Hz (eg Alpair 10.2). The whole point of a t-line cabinet is to take advantage of the bottom end of a FR driver.
Given that Chris put his FRs in 2L boxes, I suppose I could put the subs in t-lines and end up w/ floor standers.
Re. AN 15" - size is definitely a consideration, also not up for investing so much in the drivers for my very first project. I am open to co-axial although it does entail another xo which I'm not crazy about.
And lastly, Oakenfold, Digweed - good to know we're on the same page
Chris, you definitely have me looking beyond t-line cabinets. Given that I don't currently have any sort of shelf where the speakers will go, I'm still open to floor standing (hence, t-line) so long as the foot print remains small - otherwise I'm probably looking at stands if I end up w/ book shelf cabinets.
Re. position: my floor plan pretty much sucks for audio and I can't get the speakers more than a foot or so from the nearest wall (one is in a corner in front of a window, the other next to a doorway); listening position is against the opposite wall.
Re. crossover: I understand that a higher crossover generally makes things easier on the FR drivers but I'm not clear on what is actually problematic about crossing below 80Hz given that many FR drivers have Fs and F3 near 50Hz (eg Alpair 10.2). The whole point of a t-line cabinet is to take advantage of the bottom end of a FR driver.
Given that Chris put his FRs in 2L boxes, I suppose I could put the subs in t-lines and end up w/ floor standers.
Re. AN 15" - size is definitely a consideration, also not up for investing so much in the drivers for my very first project. I am open to co-axial although it does entail another xo which I'm not crazy about.
And lastly, Oakenfold, Digweed - good to know we're on the same page
Overload the room and sound, well, not good at all. And the size of a cab for the AN15 (or even the smallerones) would eat up a lot of floor space.
Chris & Zia areon the right track IMO, where the system needs to pump is in the mid & upper bass. A good 8" midbass (or a pair of 6 1/2), with a small FR xoed 160-400 Hz (active prefered) should kick butt... my room could fit about 8 of the OPs rooms in my room and anyone who has heard Sinead's Vampire with the woofTs (or the FonkenWoof) could extrapolate how well they would do in such a small room.
dave
Based on my experience (limited compared to Dave's, I'll admit), you can use "mini-subwoofer" drivers for the low frequencies.
You gain some low end grunt over the average (similar sized) mid-bass, but extension higher up suffers. IMHO, if it'll get to baffle step frequency (500Hz for me), its high enough. But I use steep (4th order) active crossovers which allows me to get rid of the nasties in the woofer's higher frequency response.
If you plan on using active crossovers, I'd consider a pair of these per side. You could mount them for force cancellation (ie, mounted on opposite faces of the cabinet) to prevent vibration travelling through the floor.
Re your point on crossovers
I understand why people put FR drivers in transmission lines. The point here is that you can get more low end extension, more overall output, and lower distortion by using a woofer to cover the range that the TL would take care of.
Chris
You gain some low end grunt over the average (similar sized) mid-bass, but extension higher up suffers. IMHO, if it'll get to baffle step frequency (500Hz for me), its high enough. But I use steep (4th order) active crossovers which allows me to get rid of the nasties in the woofer's higher frequency response.
If you plan on using active crossovers, I'd consider a pair of these per side. You could mount them for force cancellation (ie, mounted on opposite faces of the cabinet) to prevent vibration travelling through the floor.
Re your point on crossovers
I understand why people put FR drivers in transmission lines. The point here is that you can get more low end extension, more overall output, and lower distortion by using a woofer to cover the range that the TL would take care of.
Chris
I know. It sounds bloody awful. Many years ago I use to practice playing my bass guitar in my bedroom it was a single 15" cabinet, it sounded absolutely crap everything would shake and vibrate even at low volumes.
I never play bass through 15s anymore they don't sound as good as multiple 10s. Just much better tone and dynamics through multiple 10s.
Anyway that brings me to an idea, I really love the idea of the Ambience enclosure that Audio Nirvana publishes, that is 2 fullrange drivers per speaker one in front and one on top.
I think this would work really well for the seas full range or the Audio Nirvana Super Cast Frame 8 (or even the 10" cast frame).
I built a 1.5 way for the Seas full range and it worked really well. I think the Ambience enclosure is better because it does away with an inductor for the same effect.
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