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Old 16th July 2012, 09:10 PM   #1
autox is offline autox  United States
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Default Full Range and Program Content

Hi,

I'm new to diy audio and in my reading have found myself drawn to full range speakers in transmission line cabinets, but I've picked up a few hints (Bob Brines home page) that they may not be well suited to what I listen to: electronic/club DJs, pop/rock, jazz/blues - the club music being the concern.

Will a sub-woofer address any shortcoming FR/TL may otherwise demonstrate w/ electronic content? (Is crossing at 40Hz to ensure the sub gets zero content above 80Hz (psycho-location threshhold) crazy?)

My listening room is 11'x12' w/ a 9.5' ceiling. The clap test for room response has a bit of a ring to it, but I'm open to some acoustic treatment. My source will be my PC w/ deq/dxo either in software or hardware, I've got my eye on an AudioSector gain clone, and may add a tube buffer for flavor.


Advice and useful links appreciated.

Thanks,
-Rene
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Old 17th July 2012, 10:26 PM   #2
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Hi Rene,

Yes, I would add a woofer to the mix and a high pass filter to the FR to protect it from low frequencies.
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Old 17th July 2012, 10:31 PM   #3
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With this kind of repetitive music a RF driver will had a short life, you need a pro fullrange+Tweeter with a crossover.

Other option is a 15inches woofer and a FR, as the well know Alpha15A+Visaton B200 or other 8inches FR.

A FR is not suited to bass under 100Hz, the Alpha15A above is cut at 270 - 300Hz and pass to the B200.
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Old 17th July 2012, 10:50 PM   #4
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox View Post
Hi,

I'm new to diy audio and in my reading have found myself drawn to full range speakers in transmission line cabinets, but I've picked up a few hints (Bob Brines home page) that they may not be well suited to what I listen to: electronic/club DJs, pop/rock, jazz/blues - the club music being the concern.

Will a sub-woofer address any shortcoming FR/TL may otherwise demonstrate w/ electronic content? (Is crossing at 40Hz to ensure the sub gets zero content above 80Hz (psycho-location threshhold) crazy?)

My listening room is 11'x12' w/ a 9.5' ceiling. The clap test for room response has a bit of a ring to it, but I'm open to some acoustic treatment. My source will be my PC w/ deq/dxo either in software or hardware, I've got my eye on an AudioSector gain clone, and may add a tube buffer for flavor.


Advice and useful links appreciated.

Thanks,
-Rene

- +2 to Cal's confirmation above - most of us "full-rangers" have dabbled with that approach, the key to our justification being that the XOs are low enough ( under 120Hz or so) that most of the lower midrange / upper mid-bass is still being handled by the wide-band driver;
-the AudioSector is a wonderful sounding piece;
- depending on your source and even more so the driver you decide on for the wide-band part of the system, you might not need any additional "flavoring" - to be completely honest, the only tube buffer "enhancer" I've heard so far was not much more than a distortion injection device - warm and fuzzy to be sure, but not clean or real - I'd far rather invest the extra in the real front end source / higher sampling rate player software or active line stage if deemed necessary to your application
- the room is small enough that a well matched system with a single 4-5" full range driver per side should be quite adequate if Hi-Passed and supported by actively powered woofers (which might well be less than 15")

Of course when you ask for advice on a forum such as this, don't be surprised if you get more opinions and recommendations than consensus - we all have our own biases, and current favorites. That said, I think any list of candidates for such an application should include the Alpair 7.3 and 10.2, and Fostex FF125 for the widebanders.
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Old 17th July 2012, 11:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autox View Post
Hi,

I'm new to diy audio and in my reading have found myself drawn to full range speakers in transmission line cabinets, but I've picked up a few hints (Bob Brines home page) that they may not be well suited to what I listen to: electronic/club DJs, pop/rock, jazz/blues - the club music being the concern.

Will a sub-woofer address any shortcoming FR/TL may otherwise demonstrate w/ electronic content? (Is crossing at 40Hz to ensure the sub gets zero content above 80Hz (psycho-location threshhold) crazy?)

My listening room is 11'x12' w/ a 9.5' ceiling. The clap test for room response has a bit of a ring to it, but I'm open to some acoustic treatment. My source will be my PC w/ deq/dxo either in software or hardware, I've got my eye on an AudioSector gain clone, and may add a tube buffer for flavor.


Advice and useful links appreciated.

Thanks,
-Rene
Hi,

Crossing the sub at 40Hz is a bad idea: a FR driver won't go low enough to match up to it.

IMHO, to get the best out of a FR driver, asking even 80Hz (to meet a sub) is too low for decent dynamics.

Here's what I did:
Fostex and Tang Band

The concept is simple enough: using stereo woofers, you can cross over higher (I'm at 500Hz, which means baffle step compensation is usefully built in to the crossover) to give the FR driver a much easier time. The higher you take the crossover, the louder it'll go, but you've then got more problems getting the crossover exactly right so you can't hear it: the closer you get to the 1-5kHz range, the more difficult it gets - our ears are very sensitive to anomalies in that region. Lower down, its more difficult to detect: there's more margin for error.

HTH

Chris
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Old 17th July 2012, 11:43 PM   #6
zman01 is offline zman01  Bangladesh
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Rene,

Already a wealth of good advice from the folks.

I have the ferrite version of the Tang Band sub drivers that Chris661 has. Along with a MA Alp 7.3 it worked like a charm in a bi-amped config.

The Alpair 7.3 does a very good job in resolving detail, ambience, etc in electronica - along with great midrange, the top is very clear and extened.

The subs were in simple 11"x11" ported cubes. The XO was set at 110 Hz using Foobar. I had 2 amps - Hypex UcD for the Alpair 7.3 and a Tripath amp for the TB subs. Alpair 7.3 with subwoofers did better than Alpir 12 with subwoofers - the air and detail of the Alp 7.3 in the P10 Mar-Ken 7.3 design was superior, integration with the 6.5 inch sub drivers was tighter. My room was ~250 sq with similar ceiling height. Didn't feel the need for more bass.

A word on the amplification - the sub drivers will need watts to shine. First we fed it a 50 watt/channel Tripath - not good. Then we tried the 90 watt/channel at 4 ohms HifimeDIY T4 amp - the subs came alive. We used 2 subs - so bass localization was not an issue.

We tried out stuff like Anjunadeep, Paul Oakenfold, John Digweed, BT - sounded real good to us.

Last edited by zman01; 17th July 2012 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 18th July 2012, 12:07 AM   #7
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Either try an Audio Nirvana Super 15, or possibly a nice 12" or 15" Coaxial from Radion, Beyma, PAudio etc or EVen AUdio Nirvana
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Old 18th July 2012, 01:13 AM   #8
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If the music you like is similar to Jamiroquai: Travelling Without Moving. Then the Audio Nirvana 15 easily deals with that sought of music
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Old 18th July 2012, 11:16 AM   #9
zman01 is offline zman01  Bangladesh
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Melon Head,

OPs room is 11" x 12" - might be tricky to place 2 x15" there... how far from back and wall have you placed your OBs?
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Old 18th July 2012, 04:32 PM   #10
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My speakers sit anywhere between 40cm and 70cm from the back wall. My house is open plan, not sure what they might do in a room of that size, it could cause things to shake and vibrate I suppose
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