So, I have followed the ideas of full range, followed ideas on efficiency, thought about it. With some prodding, I bought a pair of Foxtex 125's and fired them up. Yes, I know, long break in.
Now please tell me, what is it that is so magical I am listening for? They sound to me like a Bose table radio. My immediate reaction is to start working up a crossover to some Vifa XT25's I have laying around.
I will clearly say, they are the flattest mid-range from 200 to 4K I have ever measured. In that, I am impressed. Is this because I still have decent hearing well above 18K?
Now please tell me, what is it that is so magical I am listening for? They sound to me like a Bose table radio. My immediate reaction is to start working up a crossover to some Vifa XT25's I have laying around.
I will clearly say, they are the flattest mid-range from 200 to 4K I have ever measured. In that, I am impressed. Is this because I still have decent hearing well above 18K?
The attraction to full range drivers are that you don't need any 'crossover' in the typical sense and the simplicity. That's about it, everything else is drawbacks.
Of course most full range drivers will still benefit from baffle step compensation and the majority will benefit from a few strategically placed notch filters to suppress the uglies when the cones start to break up.
Of course most full range drivers will still benefit from baffle step compensation and the majority will benefit from a few strategically placed notch filters to suppress the uglies when the cones start to break up.
I thoroughly enjoy multi-ways, but...
1. Seamless power response through the normal cross over region;
2. Point source sound;
3. Smoother off axis response (similar to point 1.);
4. Perfect step response (no acoustic delay/phase);
5. Impedance stays smooth without passive filters on it, making it easier to drive;
6. Very simple to design/build/implement/enjoy;
7. Cost effective... sometimes
I'm sure I've missed some. And of course, I haven't listed the negatives
1. Seamless power response through the normal cross over region;
2. Point source sound;
3. Smoother off axis response (similar to point 1.);
4. Perfect step response (no acoustic delay/phase);
5. Impedance stays smooth without passive filters on it, making it easier to drive;
6. Very simple to design/build/implement/enjoy;
7. Cost effective... sometimes
I'm sure I've missed some. And of course, I haven't listed the negatives
Hours aren't going to fix problems with cone break up and any other gross FR issues.
Did I say that it would?
In my experience drivers start sounding better after clocking up some play time. A pair of Fostex FE166ENs I tried out was very radio like for the first 30 odd hours - it started getting better after that.
Did it rid itself of all known drawbacks? No way!
Did I say that it would?
In my experience drivers start sounding better after clocking up some play time. A pair of Fostex FE166ENs I tried out was very radio like for the first 30 odd hours - it started getting better after that.
Transistor radio effect is caused by the gross FR issues resulting from breakup and lack of any baffle-step compensation, time wont fix this. Your ears and mind will adjust to it though.
Unfortunately I believe there is a lot of this happening. I do believe drivers get mildly better with break in, but by some reports, I'm quite suspicious.
It's possible that as the driver loosens, the bottoms picks up a bit of natural BSC. But I would doubt if it's any more than 1/2db.
oh, and I thought it was a good thing
but serious, just take care its not too much, or it may hurt in the long run
good old classic tube amp always was a good cure
Indeed, the T/S parameters do change during run in, but I can't imagine the effects being, like you say, anything more then 1/2 a dB or so.
Although claimed driver break-in in general is bogus IMHO, (especially T/S parameter changes with break-in) I think with full range drivers made from paper there is in fact an effect at cone breakup frequencies, not so much break-in, but acclimatisation to surrounding environmental conditions.
Untreated paper is very hygroscopic, so a thin, light, uncoated paper cone with minimal damping compounds added to it which is operating to very high frequencies over several octaves of cone breakup will in fact change its damping characteristics with changes in humidity and temperature... with a resulting small but audible and measurable change in frequency response through the breakup region. (I've measured changes in the peaks and dips in the upper midrange of more than 1dB)
If you live somewhere where temperature and humidity can vary dramatically within a few days as I used to, there is definitely a noticeable change in some paper cone full range drivers in the upper mids as the humidity swings from one extreme to the other. Now that I live somewhere where the temperature changes less and humidity is quite low nearly all the time I don't really notice any change on the exact same drivers.
Part of perceived "break-in" of new paper cone drivers may simply be the cone reaching equilibrium with the local temperature and humidity conditions after being shipped and unpacked, with a small change in damping while the moisture content of the cone stabilises.
Of course this doesn't apply to cone materials that are not hygroscopic such as metal, polypropylene etc, nor would it really apply to drivers in a multiway system where the crossover is cutting off the breakup region of the driver, as it won't be changing significantly in the piston region.
So this effect would be limited to full/wide range drivers with hygroscopic cones.
Other than that I think the majority of perceived "break-in" that audiophiles and reviewers report is simply the listener themselves breaking-in to acclimatise to a very non-flat frequency response.
In other words, a perceptual effect.For anyone that doesn't believe that, try listening to music on a full range driver which is just sitting propped on the floor or a pillow with no baffle for half an hour or so, after a while you will acclimatise somewhat to it despite a gross lack of bass and a forward midrange. Now listen to a normal well balanced system that previously sounded fine and it will now sound bass heavy with a sucked out midrange. Why ? Because our brain had partially compensated for the very non flat response it had just spent considerable time listening to...
The effect is so significant and real that if I do any extended listening to raw drivers like that while testing I know my sense of "balance" will be ruined for the next few hours if not the rest of the day, and know not to make any judgements on the balance or correctness of another system until my hearing has returned to normal again...
Only about 6 hours burn in. More to come. 9L cabinet that is properly tuned but is a sharp edge box. No networks of any kind. I do plan on putting one of my tube amps on them, but still, worse than I expected. I need to bring my subs back up as stands so I can raise the crossover to 120 or so. Way too high to leave them on the wall. So, a bit of thin-ness in the bass.
Plots are nearfield and 1M on axis in a room full of stuff. I am listening in my living room which is much friendlier.
I can appreciate the potential for the critical 2 to 4K range being without a crossover. That is where we are most sensitive. They don't image any better than the RS/Vifa's I built a few years ago. TO be totally fair, their imaging did not come in until I built some large absorbers. I have not tried them in that location. I'll do that tonight.
So far I think I see the "how good can a full range get" vs. " how good can a system get" as the two camps. Looks like I fall in the latter and am looking at this as a very good midrange. Not giving up yet though. Need to whip up a notch at 7K or so and try some of my tape-on big corner radius boards. I also picked up a pair of Fountek FE85's to play with as either mids, or as computer speakers. It was too darn hot in the garage to whip up some boxes. 101F. Call me a whimp.
Plots are nearfield and 1M on axis in a room full of stuff. I am listening in my living room which is much friendlier.
I can appreciate the potential for the critical 2 to 4K range being without a crossover. That is where we are most sensitive. They don't image any better than the RS/Vifa's I built a few years ago. TO be totally fair, their imaging did not come in until I built some large absorbers. I have not tried them in that location. I'll do that tonight.
So far I think I see the "how good can a full range get" vs. " how good can a system get" as the two camps. Looks like I fall in the latter and am looking at this as a very good midrange. Not giving up yet though. Need to whip up a notch at 7K or so and try some of my tape-on big corner radius boards. I also picked up a pair of Fountek FE85's to play with as either mids, or as computer speakers. It was too darn hot in the garage to whip up some boxes. 101F. Call me a whimp.
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The farfield graph shows a need for baffle step compensation and this will most likely be one of the major contributions to the transistor radio effect. If you've got access to a DSP, or alternatively you could use a PC as a temporary source, then it would be the quickest/easiest way to figure out what kind of filtering these will need to sound their best.
Hmmmm??? They do change some - I've measured them and so have people I know. Even old drivers that have sat around for ages can be rebroken-in. You do have to beat them up, gentle music won't do much.
I've never heard break-in change a shouty driver into butter, tho.....
Sorry for the double post!
I was out in the garage finishing off a sub and have the dain bramage heat issues going on.
I use 3" full ranges for surround speaker and they proved to me that I like the sound of the little guys. They make great wide band mids in my line arrays when crossed at 375Hz and 6KHz--that glorious midrange the FR guys talk about.
My last system build for awhile would be FRs, a sub and a T-amp for desktop duty. Since they are near field, the beaming from a Mark Audio 12P should not matter and they make it to 22KHz -3dB. I'm thinking a fully adjustable system for the desk, a super tweeter with volume control and on/off switch for options. The sub to bring up the low end and done. If I can get the 12P to make it from 80 to 10K flat, I'll be a very happy man!
I was out in the garage finishing off a sub and have the dain bramage heat issues going on.
I use 3" full ranges for surround speaker and they proved to me that I like the sound of the little guys. They make great wide band mids in my line arrays when crossed at 375Hz and 6KHz--that glorious midrange the FR guys talk about.
My last system build for awhile would be FRs, a sub and a T-amp for desktop duty. Since they are near field, the beaming from a Mark Audio 12P should not matter and they make it to 22KHz -3dB. I'm thinking a fully adjustable system for the desk, a super tweeter with volume control and on/off switch for options. The sub to bring up the low end and done. If I can get the 12P to make it from 80 to 10K flat, I'll be a very happy man!
You haven't mastered the doublethink yet.
As gafhenderson said, full-rangers sound much better than 3-way systems. What he forgot to mention is that the full-ranger does need a super-tweeter to augment the upper treble, and a sub to fill in the bottom end.
That doesn't make it a three-way system, though - it's still a single full-range driver (with a helper tweeter and a sub).
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I would say that if your amplifier is going to be that picky about what you connect to it, then it is faulty and needs replacing. This is obviously not including an amplifier being asked to drive a loudspeaker that it is incapable of driving due to current limitations and don't bother mentioning valves.
While it is true that you might be able to use some amplifier with a very low damping factor to ameliorate the issues that some full rangers present, it is not a fix imo and is only akin to sweeping something bad under the carpet.
While it is true that you might be able to use some amplifier with a very low damping factor to ameliorate the issues that some full rangers present, it is not a fix imo and is only akin to sweeping something bad under the carpet.
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