What's the attraction? - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Full Range

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd June 2012, 11:37 PM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
5th element's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Unfortunately I believe there is a lot of this happening. I do believe drivers get mildly better with break in, but by some reports, I'm quite suspicious.

It's possible that as the driver loosens, the bottoms picks up a bit of natural BSC. But I would doubt if it's any more than 1/2db.
Indeed, the T/S parameters do change during run in, but I can't imagine the effects being, like you say, anything more then 1/2 a dB or so.
__________________
What the hell are you screamin' for? Every five minutes there's a bomb or somethin'! I'm leavin! bzzzz!
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2012, 11:59 PM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
DBMandrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Glasgow, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
Indeed, the T/S parameters do change during run in, but I can't imagine the effects being, like you say, anything more then 1/2 a dB or so.
Although claimed driver break-in in general is bogus IMHO, (especially T/S parameter changes with break-in) I think with full range drivers made from paper there is in fact an effect at cone breakup frequencies, not so much break-in, but acclimatisation to surrounding environmental conditions.

Untreated paper is very hygroscopic, so a thin, light, uncoated paper cone with minimal damping compounds added to it which is operating to very high frequencies over several octaves of cone breakup will in fact change its damping characteristics with changes in humidity and temperature... with a resulting small but audible and measurable change in frequency response through the breakup region. (I've measured changes in the peaks and dips in the upper midrange of more than 1dB)

If you live somewhere where temperature and humidity can vary dramatically within a few days as I used to, there is definitely a noticeable change in some paper cone full range drivers in the upper mids as the humidity swings from one extreme to the other. Now that I live somewhere where the temperature changes less and humidity is quite low nearly all the time I don't really notice any change on the exact same drivers.

Part of perceived "break-in" of new paper cone drivers may simply be the cone reaching equilibrium with the local temperature and humidity conditions after being shipped and unpacked, with a small change in damping while the moisture content of the cone stabilises.

Of course this doesn't apply to cone materials that are not hygroscopic such as metal, polypropylene etc, nor would it really apply to drivers in a multiway system where the crossover is cutting off the breakup region of the driver, as it won't be changing significantly in the piston region.

So this effect would be limited to full/wide range drivers with hygroscopic cones.

Other than that I think the majority of perceived "break-in" that audiophiles and reviewers report is simply the listener themselves breaking-in to acclimatise to a very non-flat frequency response. In other words, a perceptual effect.

For anyone that doesn't believe that, try listening to music on a full range driver which is just sitting propped on the floor or a pillow with no baffle for half an hour or so, after a while you will acclimatise somewhat to it despite a gross lack of bass and a forward midrange. Now listen to a normal well balanced system that previously sounded fine and it will now sound bass heavy with a sucked out midrange. Why ? Because our brain had partially compensated for the very non flat response it had just spent considerable time listening to...

The effect is so significant and real that if I do any extended listening to raw drivers like that while testing I know my sense of "balance" will be ruined for the next few hours if not the rest of the day, and know not to make any judgements on the balance or correctness of another system until my hearing has returned to normal again...
__________________
- Simon
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 12:18 AM   #13
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Md
Only about 6 hours burn in. More to come. 9L cabinet that is properly tuned but is a sharp edge box. No networks of any kind. I do plan on putting one of my tube amps on them, but still, worse than I expected. I need to bring my subs back up as stands so I can raise the crossover to 120 or so. Way too high to leave them on the wall. So, a bit of thin-ness in the bass.

Plots are nearfield and 1M on axis in a room full of stuff. I am listening in my living room which is much friendlier.

I can appreciate the potential for the critical 2 to 4K range being without a crossover. That is where we are most sensitive. They don't image any better than the RS/Vifa's I built a few years ago. TO be totally fair, their imaging did not come in until I built some large absorbers. I have not tried them in that location. I'll do that tonight.

So far I think I see the "how good can a full range get" vs. " how good can a system get" as the two camps. Looks like I fall in the latter and am looking at this as a very good midrange. Not giving up yet though. Need to whip up a notch at 7K or so and try some of my tape-on big corner radius boards. I also picked up a pair of Fountek FE85's to play with as either mids, or as computer speakers. It was too darn hot in the garage to whip up some boxes. 101F. Call me a whimp.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fostex.jpg (870.1 KB, 699 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 02:03 AM   #14
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
I can appreciate the potential for the critical 2 to 4K range being without a crossover. That is where we are most sensitive. They don't image any better than the RS/Vifa's I built a few years ago. TO be totally fair, their imaging did not come in until I built some large absorbers. I have not tried them in that location. I'll do that tonight.

So far I think I see the "how good can a full range get" vs. " how good can a system get" as the two camps. Looks like I fall in the latter and am looking at this as a very good midrange. Not giving up yet though. Need to whip up a notch at 7K or so and try some of my tape-on big corner radius boards. I also picked up a pair of Fountek FE85's to play with as either mids, or as computer speakers. It was too darn hot in the garage to whip up some boxes. 101F. Call me a whimp.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 02:06 AM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
5th element's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
The farfield graph shows a need for baffle step compensation and this will most likely be one of the major contributions to the transistor radio effect. If you've got access to a DSP, or alternatively you could use a PC as a temporary source, then it would be the quickest/easiest way to figure out what kind of filtering these will need to sound their best.
__________________
What the hell are you screamin' for? Every five minutes there's a bomb or somethin'! I'm leavin! bzzzz!
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 02:16 AM   #16
Pano is offline Pano  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
Pano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Blog Entries: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
Although claimed driver break-in in general is bogus IMHO, (especially T/S parameter changes with break-in)
Hmmmm??? They do change some - I've measured them and so have people I know. Even old drivers that have sat around for ages can be rebroken-in. You do have to beat them up, gentle music won't do much.

I've never heard break-in change a shouty driver into butter, tho.....
__________________
Take the Speaker Voltage Test!
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 02:42 AM   #17
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Sorry for the double post!

I was out in the garage finishing off a sub and have the dain bramage heat issues going on.

I use 3" full ranges for surround speaker and they proved to me that I like the sound of the little guys. They make great wide band mids in my line arrays when crossed at 375Hz and 6KHz--that glorious midrange the FR guys talk about.

My last system build for awhile would be FRs, a sub and a T-amp for desktop duty. Since they are near field, the beaming from a Mark Audio 12P should not matter and they make it to 22KHz -3dB. I'm thinking a fully adjustable system for the desk, a super tweeter with volume control and on/off switch for options. The sub to bring up the low end and done. If I can get the 12P to make it from 80 to 10K flat, I'll be a very happy man!
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 03:09 AM   #18
godfrey is offline godfrey  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cape Town
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Now please tell me, what is it that is so magical I am listening for? They sound to me like a Bose table radio.
You haven't mastered the doublethink yet.

As gafhenderson said, full-rangers sound much better than 3-way systems. What he forgot to mention is that the full-ranger does need a super-tweeter to augment the upper treble, and a sub to fill in the bottom end.

That doesn't make it a three-way system, though - it's still a single full-range driver (with a helper tweeter and a sub).
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 03:20 AM   #19
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Bigun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Blog Entries: 2
sometimes it's not the speaker but the amp. The amp-speaker combination. Crossovers change the load on an amp. A FR driver presents a simple load to an amp - not necessarily the 'best' load but different from a 3-way.
__________________
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed." Robert M Pirsig.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 03:37 AM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
5th element's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
I would say that if your amplifier is going to be that picky about what you connect to it, then it is faulty and needs replacing. This is obviously not including an amplifier being asked to drive a loudspeaker that it is incapable of driving due to current limitations and don't bother mentioning valves.

While it is true that you might be able to use some amplifier with a very low damping factor to ameliorate the issues that some full rangers present, it is not a fix imo and is only akin to sweeping something bad under the carpet.
__________________
What the hell are you screamin' for? Every five minutes there's a bomb or somethin'! I'm leavin! bzzzz!
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Altmann Attraction Dac w/ Jisco and BYOB Amp rodge827 Swap Meet 1 31st March 2011 03:38 PM
Altmann Attraction DAC jeff mai Digital Source 18 20th October 2006 11:24 AM
Altman Attraction DAC. Ulas, Poobah, rfblw, Guido, anyone? MGH Digital Source 10 26th August 2006 10:17 AM
The attraction of vacuum tubes / valves. Circlotron Tubes / Valves 135 17th March 2003 02:37 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:06 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2