Although I have yet not received my AN 15 cast frame drivers
(due tomorrow!), I can share my experience with super 8 cast frame in 5.6 bass reflex cabs.
The clarity and live factor are amazing. I drive it mainly with Dared set amp listening to classical and some jazz.
Having wished many times to have heard the great performers in a concert, I can say with conviction that this set up so far has been as close as I can imagine to a live performance.
Ella Fitzgerald and Miles Davis performed for me in my room as many times as I asked
As a classical pianist a care in particular about tone color as that for me is a key in emotional expression.
These speakers perform amazingly in that respect especially with good lp pressing.
(Empire 598).
I often missed the power of the bass... then I did something something.
I flipped the speakers upside down (slowly) so that the driver is near the floor
and the vent is air level. I lost a little it of the clarity, but the tonal balance became much better. My wife (who is professional violinist) thought at first that I got a subwoofer.
I know this is probably very wrong by any hifi measure, but I like it so far.
I am looking forward to receive 15 inch drivers so I can flip my speakers rightside up again
(due tomorrow!), I can share my experience with super 8 cast frame in 5.6 bass reflex cabs.
The clarity and live factor are amazing. I drive it mainly with Dared set amp listening to classical and some jazz.
Having wished many times to have heard the great performers in a concert, I can say with conviction that this set up so far has been as close as I can imagine to a live performance.
Ella Fitzgerald and Miles Davis performed for me in my room as many times as I asked
As a classical pianist a care in particular about tone color as that for me is a key in emotional expression.
These speakers perform amazingly in that respect especially with good lp pressing.
(Empire 598).
I often missed the power of the bass... then I did something something.
I flipped the speakers upside down (slowly) so that the driver is near the floor
and the vent is air level. I lost a little it of the clarity, but the tonal balance became much better. My wife (who is professional violinist) thought at first that I got a subwoofer.
I know this is probably very wrong by any hifi measure, but I like it so far.
I am looking forward to receive 15 inch drivers so I can flip my speakers rightside up again
A 110+ instrument symphonic orchestra has dynamics from whisper to explosion, timbres from sweet to harsh, from continuous to staccato, all playing together, each one with exact placing in the stereo image and a very certain timbre. There is a very specific way a, eg, violin sounds. how can you tell that a synth is reproduced 'correctly'? It's not a natural instrument. With a violin you can listen to it, in front of you and imprint in your head what a violin sounds like. The natural instrument, its natural sound. The synth comes from speakers. I am not condescending towards instruments that use electricity and speakers ( besides, i play the electric guitar).
The ultimate test is to go to a live performance of an orchestral piece (or another acoustic performance, without PA, but it won't be as demanding), be lucky to have it recorded and then listen to it on a system. Listen to how closely the reproduction resembles the live performance. Of course, it will be rubbish, compared to the live performance... but you can compare systems, see which sounds closer to the original.
Of course now we are getting to a rather saddening realisation: No matter how good a system is, even if we assumed that it reproduced the exact same acoustic waves in the room as with the live orchestra, it is not the same. A live performance is a ritual, of sorts. It is experienced, once and it is over. Listening to a recording is like looking at a portrait of a long gone friend. Visually accurate, i won't argue one bit... but...
Anyway, i digress. I find it hard to swallow that a recording of electronic instruments is more demanding than a full symphonic orchestra.
Dramblys: how about moving them a bit closer to the wall? Not inverted... Also how about a bit of acoustic treatment of your listening space? I put up two spare matrices on the wall behind me, standing waves in the room are gone.
The ultimate test is to go to a live performance of an orchestral piece (or another acoustic performance, without PA, but it won't be as demanding), be lucky to have it recorded and then listen to it on a system. Listen to how closely the reproduction resembles the live performance. Of course, it will be rubbish, compared to the live performance... but you can compare systems, see which sounds closer to the original.
Of course now we are getting to a rather saddening realisation: No matter how good a system is, even if we assumed that it reproduced the exact same acoustic waves in the room as with the live orchestra, it is not the same. A live performance is a ritual, of sorts. It is experienced, once and it is over. Listening to a recording is like looking at a portrait of a long gone friend. Visually accurate, i won't argue one bit... but...
Anyway, i digress. I find it hard to swallow that a recording of electronic instruments is more demanding than a full symphonic orchestra.
Dramblys: how about moving them a bit closer to the wall? Not inverted... Also how about a bit of acoustic treatment of your listening space? I put up two spare matrices on the wall behind me, standing waves in the room are gone.
Dramblys: how about moving them a bit closer to the wall? Not inverted... Also how about a bit of acoustic treatment of your listening space? I put up two spare matrices on the wall behind me, standing waves in the room are gone.[/QUOTE]
I have moved them quite a bit. Tilting, putting them at the angle, closer to the wall, further. In fact I had gone a little crazy experimenting (audiophile bug?).
Putting them closer to the wall certainly gave more bass, but midrange did become a little harsher and somehow muddled. Acoustic treatment would be next and probably complex/expensive step.
However tomorrow...
I will share my impressions about the 15ths as soon as I install them. Off to home depot to buy jigsaw tomorrow morning for the bigger driver holes.
I have moved them quite a bit. Tilting, putting them at the angle, closer to the wall, further. In fact I had gone a little crazy experimenting (audiophile bug?).
Putting them closer to the wall certainly gave more bass, but midrange did become a little harsher and somehow muddled. Acoustic treatment would be next and probably complex/expensive step.
However tomorrow...
I will share my impressions about the 15ths as soon as I install them. Off to home depot to buy jigsaw tomorrow morning for the bigger driver holes.
If you want a proper, good, answer, i will have to ask for your patience I will record myself playing the electric and then see how close it gets I have 12" cast frame AN.
My amp? You don't want to know...
I will record myself playing the electric and then see how close it gets I have 12" cast frame AN.My amp? You don't want to know...
it's not, please read what i said again.
i could be listening for several minutes before orchestral arrangements build to the level of rapid complexity that the first minute of that song produces. some may not ever reach that level of rapid cycling.
you can also get accustomed to the driver over this length of time and not notice the flaws as easily as in that first few minutes of production.
a note is still a note. a violin produces those notes with its own character flaws, which make it what it is. a keyboard produces those exact same notes with its own character. it doesn't matter the source of those notes, its how well they're represented by the driver that we care about. after all the perfect speaker is the one that doesn't sound like it is there.
Regarding the realism of instrument reproduction I have a story:
My son who is learning the violin had a supervised practicing session at the end of which I recorded a little run-through with simple Zoom2 recorder. Later after he was sound asleep, I decided to listen to that little recording via my main sysyptem (AN super 8).
At that time my wife came into the apartment and became very upset that our son was not sleeping yet!
Only after she waked into the room she realized that it was in fact a recording.
My son who is learning the violin had a supervised practicing session at the end of which I recorded a little run-through with simple Zoom2 recorder. Later after he was sound asleep, I decided to listen to that little recording via my main sysyptem (AN super 8).
At that time my wife came into the apartment and became very upset that our son was not sleeping yet!
Only after she waked into the room she realized that it was in fact a recording.
the sound a violin produces is, by definition, perfect, because we are judging a system how well it reproduces a recording of it. One violin will sound ever so slightly different from the next one, but these differences are what a system is called to reproduce accurately.
"violing" hahaha
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but it isn't. it never holds a perfect note. the better the violinist and the violin, the closer they get to a perfect note. we accept the flaws as part of the sound that makes its character, that make it a violin. lots of rock music is distortion, massive imperfection far from the sound the guitar strings actually produced but we find it pleasing.
loudspeaker drivers also have their own character derived from their flaws.
when you mate 2 flawed sources together it can either sound good or awful. if you mate one flawed driver with a perfect representation of tone, then you will usually hear its problems easily, like if you listen to a frequency sweep. the perfect system would produce every frequency at the same volume, most will not.
i can listen to 2 separate Eva cassidy tracks on the FANE and the AN clones I have. fields of gold - the FANE can't play due to the notes of the instruments falling right around one of its shrieks and eva's voice falling in a dip between peaks. it can however play 'wade in the water' much better as the song seems to avoid these repetitive notes that i can hear are shrieking at me. The AN neo's produce both songs with crisp detail and no obvious shrieking or dips. they play the daft punk song very well, they are good drivers. the FANE's are not.
i'm not entirely sure what you're arguing with me about if i'm honest.
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The vibrato in violin is by definition variation (flutter) of pitch.
Many great violinists can be recognized by their personal vibrato alone.
It can varry in vidth and speed.
They don't always carry perfect tone in that sense.
Some of violin intonation (pitch) is different from well tempered tuning on the piano (such as leading tones being higher)
With so many variables it would hard to objectively define perfect tone in violin.
Great violinists are certainly not defined by how close they hold the tone.
It is given reality at the student level.
Many great violinists can be recognized by their personal vibrato alone.
It can varry in vidth and speed.
They don't always carry perfect tone in that sense.
Some of violin intonation (pitch) is different from well tempered tuning on the piano (such as leading tones being higher)
With so many variables it would hard to objectively define perfect tone in violin.
Great violinists are certainly not defined by how close they hold the tone.
It is given reality at the student level.
whoa there. as a guitarist i have to say is not at all how you describe it. the entire chain guitar-amp-speaker-cab is the instrument. (some, include the mic in the chain, i think it is incorrect to do so, because what the guitarist hears when he plays is not the mic's output, it is the cabinet's output which the mic tries to capture.)
This is exactly what I am experiencing with my drivers. I find the 15"s are a definite improvement all round for a one driver set-up. Regarding bass: Quality is so much more important than quantity, and these woofers absolutely deliver. I am a bass player and I do not find these 15"s lacking. A lot of guys that build open baffles often put the woofer very close to the ground for the exact same reason you did so need to feel silly about that.I can share my experience with super 8 cast frame in 5.6 bass reflex cabs.
The clarity and live factor are amazing. I drive it mainly with Dared set amp listening to classical and some jazz.
Having wished many times to have heard the great performers in a concert, I can say with conviction that this set up so far has been as close as I can imagine to a live performance.
Ella Fitzgerald and Miles Davis performed for me in my room as many times as I asked
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and what does it sound like playing Pink Floyd ? Nine Inch Nails ? Tracy Chapman ? Diana Krall ? Jennifer Warnes ? Bob Segar ?
I don't really care what a piano sounds like, but hearing voice and / or with other stuff is more of an acid test to me. I'm not sure what a piano sounds like in my room.
NOrman
I don't really care what a piano sounds like, but hearing voice and / or with other stuff is more of an acid test to me. I'm not sure what a piano sounds like in my room.
NOrman
What is not so good with the drivers ?
It is true that resonances in the drivers can become painful depending on the music, the singer (instrument), and where driver resonances fall. Looking closely at the freq response of an an15, there is up to a 10db lift in the presence region. I'm not sure I can live with that unequalized. That may sound hashy. I suspect hearing brushes on cymbals easily may be a clue to that.
My tb 1808 had a +5db lift from 1.5khz-3.5khz, that was annoying. Initially it seemed like detail such as hearing the skin tonality of a floor tom, then it got annoying once you realize it shouldn't be there after listening to flatter speakers and headphones. I sold it. To me, a >$200 8" speaker should not need an equalizer or a notch. But I'm in the minority. People love the 1808, just not me.
That daft punk song originally linked too is an example of learning acid tests in recordings to sniff out problems.
But if your music plus your speaker doesn't set off the resonances, then it is a good match !!!!!!!!
If I remember correctly, Bob Brines said that once you equalized drivers flat, they sound very similar (given same cone size).
Melon Head, did you use the freq shaping circuit with the seas fr22 8" driver ?
Even if you did, there is still a 4db spike at 3khz, but otherwise should be a fine driver.
Nelson Pass
"I like it with amplifiers having a lower damping factor, maybe 2 to 4, and
usually tweak the top end with a little RC loading across the terminals.
I think you can do better, but not at the price. And of course you can add
a sub and a good high frequency driver."
Norman
It is true that resonances in the drivers can become painful depending on the music, the singer (instrument), and where driver resonances fall. Looking closely at the freq response of an an15, there is up to a 10db lift in the presence region. I'm not sure I can live with that unequalized. That may sound hashy. I suspect hearing brushes on cymbals easily may be a clue to that.
My tb 1808 had a +5db lift from 1.5khz-3.5khz, that was annoying. Initially it seemed like detail such as hearing the skin tonality of a floor tom, then it got annoying once you realize it shouldn't be there after listening to flatter speakers and headphones. I sold it. To me, a >$200 8" speaker should not need an equalizer or a notch. But I'm in the minority. People love the 1808, just not me.
That daft punk song originally linked too is an example of learning acid tests in recordings to sniff out problems.
But if your music plus your speaker doesn't set off the resonances, then it is a good match !!!!!!!!
If I remember correctly, Bob Brines said that once you equalized drivers flat, they sound very similar (given same cone size).
Melon Head, did you use the freq shaping circuit with the seas fr22 8" driver ?
Even if you did, there is still a 4db spike at 3khz, but otherwise should be a fine driver.
Nelson Pass
"I like it with amplifiers having a lower damping factor, maybe 2 to 4, and
usually tweak the top end with a little RC loading across the terminals.
I think you can do better, but not at the price. And of course you can add
a sub and a good high frequency driver."
Norman
i was actually thinking the AN15 a top of an 18" low frequency PA driver with a super tweeter in an H frame open baffle set up.
i can't help but think multiways have their merits and quite a few people are very impressed with F.A.S.T. so really this is like a 'very' F.A.S.T system for those who like music to come at them like the jet exhaust on a 747 and can't quite figure out compound horns etc.
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