I am thinking of building the Mullard 3+3watt stereo amplifier and would welcome suggestions for suitable speakers either built or in kit form. The set up would be for an average sized lounge and listening to classical music without rocking the foundations!
My reading so far suggests i should look for speakers with above 90dB sensitivity and preferably 95dB. A further restriction is that the speakers should be 'domestically acceptable' which means small floor standing cabinets.
I've spent hours surfing the net on this topic but am left in confusion. Any help greatly appreciated.
My reading so far suggests i should look for speakers with above 90dB sensitivity and preferably 95dB. A further restriction is that the speakers should be 'domestically acceptable' which means small floor standing cabinets.
I've spent hours surfing the net on this topic but am left in confusion. Any help greatly appreciated.
90 to 95 db sensitivity is a fairly wide range.
For reasonable volume levels with sufficient headroom, 90 db and 3W is little marginal. 93db speakers would be twice the volume with the same power compared to 90db, and 96db sensitivity would be 4 times the volume from the same wattage. Conversely, for a given volume level, 96db speakers will require 1/4 of the power that 90db speakers require.
As a general rule of thumb, you'll find that larger drivers are more sensitive than smaller ones....and getting above about 95db sensitivity starts getting tough without horn loading, etc.
For reasonable volume levels with sufficient headroom, 90 db and 3W is little marginal. 93db speakers would be twice the volume with the same power compared to 90db, and 96db sensitivity would be 4 times the volume from the same wattage. Conversely, for a given volume level, 96db speakers will require 1/4 of the power that 90db speakers require.
As a general rule of thumb, you'll find that larger drivers are more sensitive than smaller ones....and getting above about 95db sensitivity starts getting tough without horn loading, etc.
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as boywonder remarked, that's a wide range of sensitivity to consider, and the constraint of "domestically acceptable" could well shorten the list of driver and enclosure size / type
the first that comes to mind would be FH3 with Fostex FE126E or Alpair7.3 (don't let the latter's specs dissuade you, it's far more "efficient" at delivering music into the room than the sensitivity number would suggest)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3.html
disclaimer: see signature line below
another candidate might be the FF125WK in a "pensil-esque" MLTL
the first that comes to mind would be FH3 with Fostex FE126E or Alpair7.3 (don't let the latter's specs dissuade you, it's far more "efficient" at delivering music into the room than the sensitivity number would suggest)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3.html
disclaimer: see signature line below
another candidate might be the FF125WK in a "pensil-esque" MLTL
So you are looking for more than just driver choices and enclosure plans, correct?
Wild Burro Audio, The Betsy or The Betsy-K:
Wild Burro Audio Labs - Fullrange Speakers - The Betsy & Betsy-K Drivers
Wild Burro Audio Labs - Fullrange Speaker Projects - Basic Open Baffle Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Happy days.
Wild Burro Audio Labs - Fullrange Speakers - The Betsy & Betsy-K Drivers
Wild Burro Audio Labs - Fullrange Speaker Projects - Basic Open Baffle Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Happy days.
I think the poster needs to qualify what the dimensional / design constraints of "domestically acceptable" means in his particular case before our "assistance" furthers his confusion
It might be a good idea to review a few of the build galleries with the domestic partner to test those limits - you could be surprised (just be sure to clear the late night browser history first)
It might be a good idea to review a few of the build galleries with the domestic partner to test those limits - you could be surprised (just be sure to clear the late night browser history first)
And the size of an average lounge? I understand that that is smaller in the UK then here in NA.
Toppsy is the flat-pak guy in the UK. He primarily does FH3, Chris' suggestion of these with FE126 is a good one. It is VERY popular with the small SE crowd. It can benefit from usable corners to help extend the bass.
FH3 Picture Gallery
dave
Where did you get this? 3dB needs twice the power, but is considered to be the minimum change in output that is "noticable". A 10dB change in SPL is considered to be "twice" as loud.
The Relationship of Voltage, Loudness, Power and Decibels
There are other similar references.
The Relationship of Voltage, Loudness, Power and Decibels
There are other similar references.
Figures I'd screw that up.....I knew that 10X the power is required to double the volume......
Well, at least the sentence about power is correct......
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Figures I'd screw that up.....I knew that 10X the power is required to double the volume......
Well, at least the sentence about power is correct......
let's get back to the questions of xtaljo's "average sized lounge" and what would constitute "domestically acceptable" enclosure size / design
even if on the room is larger end of the scale, I'd wager Kleinhorns or Experience Music 4 way FL horns might not qualify
OK to be fair, even though reasonably efficient, these need more than 2 channels of amplification
Hi I'm thinking of building these and they might work for you too being 93db but the input wattage is 15 not sure if you would be under power with your 3watt amp maybe you can bump it up a bit, I'm new to this too so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but these speaker look to have lots of potential.
Fostex BK-12m Folded Horn Kit - Pair: Madisound Speaker Store
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I should have specified that the lounge is about 15' x 12' and 'domestically acceptable' means something much more like Oaleman's suggested BK-12m cabinet with a maximum foot-print of about 8" x 14". I know this is a very restrictive spec. but one or two other suggestions would be welcome particularly with a 6" driver.
Incidentally the BK-12m plans are very detailed and great for free so many thanks for that.
The massive horns (photo.) would generate slightly more than a raised eyebrow!
I should have specified that the lounge is about 15' x 12' and 'domestically acceptable' means something much more like Oaleman's suggested BK-12m cabinet with a maximum foot-print of about 8" x 14". I know this is a very restrictive spec. but one or two other suggestions would be welcome particularly with a 6" driver.
Incidentally the BK-12m plans are very detailed and great for free so many thanks for that.
The massive horns (photo.) would generate slightly more than a raised eyebrow!
PS The rated input of the Fostex FE126En is 15 watts. This is considerably less than the Mullards rated output of 3 watts. But am I right in thinking that 50 years ago when the Mullard was designed wattage ratings were RMS and today's ratings are nearer to peak to peak? So maybe the Mullard amp's output would be satisfactory with these drivers.
I fear I may have unleashed another controversy with my (ill informed?) mentionof rms and peak to peak measurements!
I fear I may have unleashed another controversy with my (ill informed?) mentionof rms and peak to peak measurements!
typically most of your listening will be done with less than 1 watt
You don't really need to worry about the wattage ratings of the drivers in your application, as the rated or max power ratings reflect an upper sustained power limit where over time the voice coil can overheat, melting it's varnish insulation and shorting. At a sustained 15W input, these lightweight-coned, high sensitivity speakers will have all kinds of other limits being met or exceeded.
With 3W rms to play with, it's all about sensitivity.
Back in the day, these small amps were used to drive very large horn-loaded speakers in movie theaters, etc since 3-4 watts was state of the art. Very large horn loaded drivers can be very sensitive, approaching or exceeding 100db. Google Altec, klipsh, etc.
With reasonably sensitive speakers, most of you listening will be done with less than a watt or so, except for transients like drum hits, loud bass notes, etc.
You don't really need to worry about the wattage ratings of the drivers in your application, as the rated or max power ratings reflect an upper sustained power limit where over time the voice coil can overheat, melting it's varnish insulation and shorting. At a sustained 15W input, these lightweight-coned, high sensitivity speakers will have all kinds of other limits being met or exceeded.
With 3W rms to play with, it's all about sensitivity.
Back in the day, these small amps were used to drive very large horn-loaded speakers in movie theaters, etc since 3-4 watts was state of the art. Very large horn loaded drivers can be very sensitive, approaching or exceeding 100db. Google Altec, klipsh, etc.
With reasonably sensitive speakers, most of you listening will be done with less than a watt or so, except for transients like drum hits, loud bass notes, etc.
yes, the BK12 is nifty little performer, probably meets DAF, and while the little Mullard into the FE126E won't break any windows, it will certainly play satisfactorily loud enough for a lot of folks in an "average sized lounge"
OTOH, if you have the extra required floor space and can position them symmetrically in relation to corners, the FH3 with FE126E will develop a much more spacious soundstage, as well as more weight and dynamics in the bass.
OTOH, if you have the extra required floor space and can position them symmetrically in relation to corners, the FH3 with FE126E will develop a much more spacious soundstage, as well as more weight and dynamics in the bass.
Hmmm..... small foot print? WAF? 6" driver?
How about a Metronome with a Fostex FF165wk? 92 dB sensitivity may be enough for a 3 wpc amp. And I have found that females seem to like to look of Mets.
Photo shows my FE167e Mets standing in front of FE108eSigma Mets.
Cheers, Jim
How about a Metronome with a Fostex FF165wk? 92 dB sensitivity may be enough for a 3 wpc amp. And I have found that females seem to like to look of Mets.
Photo shows my FE167e Mets standing in front of FE108eSigma Mets.
Cheers, Jim
Attachments
I plan on building these modest sized speakers to use with my Fi 2A3 amp:
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/Pensils122p-plan-180412.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/210283-alpair-12p-gen-2-paper-cone-10.html#post3000207
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/Pensils122p-plan-180412.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/210283-alpair-12p-gen-2-paper-cone-10.html#post3000207
I really should build a set of these, just to recalibrate my ears to something different - in other words: "Chris, when will you stop fonken around?"
still can't resist a cheesy pun
Hi,
3 watts per channel is not a lot to play with. My plan would be as high
efficiency as possible speakers and line level EQ to flatten the response.
A small footprint (8"x14") does limit things, especially the size of the
driver, and simply the bigger it is, and the bigger the cabinet, the
more efficiency you can expect for a given level of decent bass.
i'd recommend an 8" driver in a tall floorstanding vented box.
From the UK specifically the Seas FA22RCZ.
H1597-08 - SEAS FA22RCZ 8” full range driver - Europe Audio
http://seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/fa22rcz_appnote.pdf
It needs line level filtering for flat response. Its usually done with
a parallel inductor + resistor in series with the driver, but done line
level your amps will sound like 10W+ in the upper range, such an
arrangement is not to be sneezed at with very limited power.
It models very well in a ~ 60L 2cuft box tuned to 33Hz.
(Seas recommend sealed, fair enough for a lot of power,
but here the vented box doubles the output in the bass.)
rgds, sreten.
3 watts per channel is not a lot to play with. My plan would be as high
efficiency as possible speakers and line level EQ to flatten the response.
A small footprint (8"x14") does limit things, especially the size of the
driver, and simply the bigger it is, and the bigger the cabinet, the
more efficiency you can expect for a given level of decent bass.
i'd recommend an 8" driver in a tall floorstanding vented box.
From the UK specifically the Seas FA22RCZ.
H1597-08 - SEAS FA22RCZ 8” full range driver - Europe Audio
http://seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/fa22rcz_appnote.pdf
It needs line level filtering for flat response. Its usually done with
a parallel inductor + resistor in series with the driver, but done line
level your amps will sound like 10W+ in the upper range, such an
arrangement is not to be sneezed at with very limited power.
It models very well in a ~ 60L 2cuft box tuned to 33Hz.
(Seas recommend sealed, fair enough for a lot of power,
but here the vented box doubles the output in the bass.)
rgds, sreten.
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