Alnico Instrumental Speakers+Super Tweeter as an Option for very expensive Full-Range

[tiefbassuebertr]

Fullrange speakers are mostly very expensive as long as alnico is in use (above 10.000 US-$ in case of Monster-Alnico from Feastrex) Here some examples:

Supravox
215 EXC SUPRAVOX
165 LB SUPRAVOX
SEAS
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/exotic/pdf_datasheet/x1-04_exotic-f8_datasheet.pdf
Lowther
Lowther Loudspeakers -
PHY
PHY-HP (Haut parleurs)® - H 21 LB 15 SAG
PHY-HP H 30 LB 15 SAG (PHY)
PHY-HP Open Baffle
Voxativ
Voxativ Loudspeakers
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/182621-expensive-full-range.html
http://www.eltim.eu/data/mediablocks/Voxativ K+T_5-09_AC-X-Test-LR.pdf
Voxativ Loudspeakers
VOXATIV Full range drive units
Decware
Decware FRX Full Range Driver
Decware's Audiophile Product Page
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/180185-new-frx-ob-driver-decware.html
HiWell/HW-Speaker "08HF46D"
08HF46D:8",35 W RMS,70 W program,1" coil-hiwell
products_Hiwell speaker
L.Cao alnico/Onecaudio
L.Cao full range speakers
Feastrex Monster Alnico
Products
Photo-Gallery-NatureFlux
http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/RetailOnLine_09.pdf
BD-Design - Feastrex
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/122499-feastrex-fostex-compared-lone-star-audio-fest.html

What about the consideration to use guitar legend speakers with Alnico magnet system together with a super-tweeter so as the appopriate additional equalization?
Are there already experiences?

Here some examples of the good known versions from such instrumental transducer models:

Celestion G12 Blue (30 cm, 329,-- used e.g. in Vox AC-30 TBX)
Alnico - Celestion Blue - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
Celestion Blue Bulldogs 12"
Celestion Blue Bulldog Alnico 12'' 15W 8 Ohm Made In England - Celestion
Vintage Amps Bulletin Board • View topic - Celestion blue cone codes w/PICS
http://swartamps.com/images/Celestion_Blue_full_900.jpg
http://www.bazaar-world.com/uploads/amp/51/270342241951-2.jpg
The VOX Showroom - The Vox AC-30TB and AC30TBX Amplifiers
Celestion G10 Gold (221,--, e.g. Fender)
Alnico - Celestion G10 Gold - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
Celestion Alnico Gold Bulldog 10" 8 Ohm
Celestion Gold Alnico Bulldog 10'' 40W 8 Ohm Made In England - Celestion
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4139/5434620093_b291157459_z.jpg
http://mmusicmag.com/m/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CELESTION-Gear-Review-June-2011.jpg
http://www.teamaudio.fr/media/catal...70de3c492f7dec78549ae2e/g/1/g10_gold-15_1.jpg
Celestion speakers in a Deluxe Reverb - Telecaster Guitar Forum
Celestion G12 Gold (30cm, 295,--)
Alnico - Celestion Gold - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
Celestion Alnico Gold Bulldog 12 8 Ohm
Celestion Gold Alnico Bulldog 12" 50W 8 Ohm - Celestion
Celestion Gold Alnico Bulldog 12" 50W 8 Ohm - Celestion
Celestion gold image by Twinhit on Photobucket

Fane AXA 12 (30 cm, 249 Euro)
Fane International Ltd Loud Speakers
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/downloads/Fane AXA 12 Data Sheet.pdf
Fane AXA-12 12" 100W 16 Ohm - Axiom
FANE AXA-12 Speaker Cabinet
Fane AXA 10 (25 cm 245 Euro)
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/downloads/Fane AXA 10 Data Sheet.pdf
Fane AXA-10 10" 100W 16 Ohm - Axiom

Eminence LEGEND 1028K (99,--)
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Legend_1028K.pdf
Eminence Legend 1028K

Jensen P10Q (96,--)
P10Q | Jensen Loudspeakers
Jensen P10q 10 8ohm
Jensen P10Q 10'' 40W 8 Ohm - ALNICO SERIES
VDS HP Jensen P10Q
Jensen P10R (79,--)
P10R | Jensen Loudspeakers
http://www.aceguitarparts.com.au/jensenp10r.jpg
http://www.vintageguitaramplifiers.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/-59343704003799191.jpg
http://sp.j-guitar.com/uploads/1630/r/productphoto_4e4d19c5-6630-48.jpg
Jensen P10R Alnico Vintage 8OHM
Jensen P10R 10'' 25W 8 Ohm - ALNICO SERIES
Champ-cut.gif (image)
http://images.thomann.de/pics/bdb/110225/1883327_800.jpg
Jensen P8R (79,--)
P8R | Jensen Loudspeakers
Jensen P8R 4 Ohm
Jensen P8R 8" 25W 8 Ohm - ALNICO SERIES
http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/speaker/image/jensen_p8r.jpg
Jensen P12R (89,--)
P12R | Jensen Loudspeakers
Jensen P12R 12" 25W 8 Ohm - ALNICO SERIES
Jensen P12R Alnico Vintage 8Ohm
http://www.blackswampaudio.com/Images/Inv/1269.2.jpg
http://bild9.qimage.de/jensen-p12r-alnico-foto-bild-46653269.jpg
http://imgc.classistatic.com/cps/blnc/120211/763r1/30891c1_23.jpeg

Frequency response Jensen:
Jensen® Vintage Speakers
Basics
http://www.tt-cabs.com/tt_tech/doc/TTC-Boxen_und_Lautsprecher_Leitfaden.pdf

Weber Speakers
https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

more pics - Eminence/Fane

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

more pics Jensen P8R from various generations

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

more pics Jensen P10Q and P10R

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

last pics from Jensen's P12R

 

[sreten]

Hi, And your point / subject is ? rgds, sreten.

 

[d to the g]

THAT is a lot of links. Measuring most any guitar speaker will show why the majority are no good for hifi. Peaky response and no bass are almost prerequisites.

 

[Keriwena]

THAT is a lot of links. Measuring most any guitar speaker will show why the majority are no good for hifi. Peaky response and no bass are almost prerequisites.

Quite true.

Guitar speakers are voiced to have peaks in the top end (which ends about 5K). They have huge magnets and stiff surrounds so most have an Fs near 100Hz, despite the heavy cones. And, the accordion surrounds make them non-linear, with a Qts of close to 1. What more could you ask for?

I actually listen to a lot of music played through guitar speakers, as that's how I break them in. The bass in a TL (and they will go low in a TL) is very natural for bass guitar, not so inspiring for cello or even acoustic guitar. Kick drums however, sound dead on. Male vocals are... forward is an understatement. But it's the cymbals that will drive you from the room. Did I mention the cone of a guitar speaker is designed to have massive amounts of harmonic distortion?


If you must, try one of these:
http://www.wgs4.com/content/BHHP

Very smooth through the highs (for a guitar speaker), but the weak magnet/heavy cone will want to make a nasty bump in the mid-bass.

 

[zmyrna]

The only guitar speaker that found its way into diy audio is Tone Tubby.
Lynn Olson likes the TT 12" alnico.
People have used it with Lowthers or horn tweeters on top.
Some also use the TT 8" fe version as a wide ranger.
The rest is pretty much hopeless.
But the alnico tubbies are not cheap in Europe.
If you are after affordable alnico, look for vintage.
Germany is probably the best place for finding vintage alnicos.
I have got myself some beautiful new old stock Isophons on German ebay. 15-20 euros each.

 

[chrisb]

well, not all "guitar / musical instrument" speakers have "huge" magnets (relative to cone size) - eg Eminence Beta 12TA 34oz for 12" cone, FS at 60Hz avg sens= 99dB , while say Fostex FE163En weighs in a 38 oz for 6" full range ( Fs 56 and avg sens=93dB) - of course that's apples to oranges and I doubt anyone would use any of the Fostex FR drivers for guitar speakers (for long at least), but the reverse is not necessarily the case.



The Tone Tubby's are great, but certainly not the only guitar speakers that have found their way into DIY audio - see Eminence cited above, and of course there manufactures such as Hawthorne and Hammer Dynamics catering to the DIY crowd with custom OEM drivers from this same company

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Thank you for the information on additional brands.

THAT is a lot of links. Measuring most any guitar speaker will show why the majority are no good for hifi. Peaky response and no bass are almost prerequisites.

I forgot to point out in my first post, that the wanted frequency area should only start from 80 to 120 Hz in high pass filtered boom box alignments (for satellite systems).
Otherwise, i. e. by use down to the lowest register without additional sub, it would obviously be impossible to replace full-range versions by guitar speaker - that's perfectly clear.

But to equalize the peaky response in the upper aera to get a smoothness roll-off is for me an easy task (in opposite to metal diaphragms)

 

[Keriwena]

well, not all "guitar / musical instrument" speakers have "huge" magnets (relative to cone size) - eg Eminence Beta 12TA 34oz for 12" cone, FS at 60Hz avg sens= 99dB , while say Fostex FE163En weighs in a 38 oz for 6" full range ( Fs 56 and avg sens=93dB) - of course that's apples to oranges and I doubt anyone would use any of the Fostex FR drivers for guitar speakers (for long at least), but the reverse is not necessarily the case.

I don't know of anyone using a Beta 12LTA for guitar, do you?

It's true some players prefer clean speakers, and some do use "pro speakers" meant for PA (the EV SRO being the most notable example), but none of those speakers were in the list in the OP. He's looking at "real" guitar speakers - those designed to distort with very little power applied.


tiefbassuebertr, there are two other problems guitar players have you might want to think about before dropping over $200 on a midrange speaker. 12" guitar speakers beam badly over ~1200Hz, perhaps due to the deep cones. And, when used in combination with ceramic speakers, alnicos "get lost" when the volume is turned up because the alnico magnets demagnetize (temporarily) and compress the signal.

For guitar, I love alnico speakers - I have quite a few. But I can't imagine using them in a HiFi/Monitor/PA application. I think trying to build a multi-speaker system with drivers that are deliberately non-linear is going to make you crazy.

IMHO. YMMV.

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

Better Replacement for Saba Greencone wanted

THAT is a lot of links. Measuring most any guitar speaker will show why the majority are no good for hifi. Peaky response and no bass are almost prerequisites.

This I know. But similar character than guitar loudspeakers is to observe by the SABA vintage full range speaker "greencone" regarded the frequency response - go to
http://www.visaton.de/bilder/forum/forum04/saba-greencone.gif
and
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/140953-vintage-greencone.html
and
Endorphine from Kingston Kitchen
found by
Saba greencone? - Zvucnici - diyaudio.rs
more diagrams arround Greencones:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/greencones.htm

But actually I think, the right instrumental loudspeaker must be better than SABA's Greencone, if I want to use only the frequency aera between 100Hz and 8-10 KHz.

And another fact I don't like:
This full range speaker isn't in currently production. Thus I must find an old vintage radio from SABA and must remove the speakers from it, if I want to have one.

 

[mondogenerator]

youd be surprised chris, ive seen 1 custom acoustic guitar amp that used Fostex, but you cant buy that amp off the shelf Im a little unsure what the link between guitar drivers and full range is...just because theyre used fullrange it doesnt mean they are suitable for fullrange music REproduction, heck SOME fullrange hifi isnt suitable either! The magnet material really makes the least difference in this case, as Keriwena said the designed operation of these is totally at odds with reproduction, but great for making musical noise for what its worth Neo is also better than ceramic, also goes for premium price, but still less than alnico. Far too many folks cuban tax havens are supported by alnico revivalism and the profiteering that inevitably occurs

 

[FullRangeMan]

/FRX.html]
What about the consideration to use guitar legend speakers with Alnico magnet system together with a super-tweeter so as the appopriate additional equalization?
Are there already experiences?

IF you wish a great sound and low price fullrange, I would suggest the famous Visaton B200, 8inches, 9 grams paper cone for just 125euros at Thomann.

If you want a OB boxless sound quality, use a B200 with the pro Eminence Alpha15-A (15inches, 97dB, 200W and 65dollars at PartsExpress) and use a 4.7mH Erse inductor to cut at 280Hz.
Unfortunately both are not Alnico for this low price.
Good Luck

 

[Ronsonic]

Some of the old EV and JBL drivers did okay crossing over between applications. But only okay.

 

[DeonC]

I second the vote for the Tone Tubby alnicos. Alnico + hemp cones could be just what you are looking for. Not cheap, but good.

Enjoy,
Deon

 

[chris661]

I don't know of anyone using a Beta 12LTA for guitar, do you?

I use a 10" version of one of these in my 4x10" cab. The rest are PA midbasses, because I like to play bass as well as guitar, and know that guitar speakers won't fill an auditorium with low frequencies like these drivers will.

Chris

 

[tiefbassuebertr]

What is the currently Company Name for McKenzie/Wharfedale

I use a 10" version of one of these in my 4x10" cab. The rest are PA midbasses, because I like to play bass as well as guitar, and know that guitar speakers won't fill an auditorium with low frequencies like these drivers will.
Chris

I am looking for the currently webaddress for McKenzie/Wharfedale

youd be surprised chris, ive seen 1 custom acoustic guitar amp that used Fostex, but you cant buy that amp off the shelf Im a little unsure what the link between guitar drivers and full range is...just because theyre used fullrange it doesnt mean they are suitable for fullrange music REproduction, heck SOME fullrange hifi isnt suitable either! The magnet material really makes the least difference in this case, as Keriwena said the designed operation of these is totally at odds with reproduction, but great for making musical noise for what its worth Neo is also better than ceramic, also goes for premium price, but still less than alnico. Far too many folks cuban tax havens are supported by alnico revivalism and the profiteering that inevitably occurs

Basiclly instrumental loudspeakers are not suited for audio-hifi resp. reproduction of recorded music. Nevertheless is it worth a try to investigate this in detail, particularly the versions with alnico magnet systems

Some of the old EV and JBL drivers did okay crossing over between applications. But only okay.

I don't understand this term: "But only okay"

 

[mondogenerator]

as previously stated, guitar speakers in particular arent designed with low THD in mind, in fact the opposite. They will likely sound very dirty. I wouldnt even try the delta10, eminence havent made a tailored driver for years, my opinion is that theyre a bit 'general purpose stage monitor', ie not optimal for guitar, or bass, or music. Mainly optimised to have enough bass warmth, but not enough to create mic feedback, reportedly theyre not all that clean either. Maybe the whizzered eminence are worth a shot, but i wouldnt waste my time on their other models.