Hello, new member to the forums here.. Definitely still kind of a DIY rookie so please forgive any stupidity or ignorance as it is not intended.
Anyways - ever since listening to a friends cyburgs needles a while back (and being amazed over how much bass they produced given the tiny 3" tangband) I have been wanting to make something similar, just with even smaller fullranges to see what the result would be.
So this build is just for fun and not to be taken too seriously.
About a week ago I found W2-803SM at a local dealer. So now they are standing in a baffle in my basement being "run in" while I try to figure out what to put them in.
W2-803SM Specs -> http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w2-803sm.htm
Could the W2-803SM be used in a enclosure similar with cyburgs with reasonable success? (And by similar I mean only narrower, keeping depth and height of the original needle)
Or are there other solutions which could milk another drop of bass out of these tiny creatures?
Could something like this with a longer fold and port on top work?
Thanks
Anyways - ever since listening to a friends cyburgs needles a while back (and being amazed over how much bass they produced given the tiny 3" tangband) I have been wanting to make something similar, just with even smaller fullranges to see what the result would be.
So this build is just for fun and not to be taken too seriously.
About a week ago I found W2-803SM at a local dealer. So now they are standing in a baffle in my basement being "run in" while I try to figure out what to put them in.
W2-803SM Specs -> http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w2-803sm.htm
Could the W2-803SM be used in a enclosure similar with cyburgs with reasonable success? (And by similar I mean only narrower, keeping depth and height of the original needle)
Or are there other solutions which could milk another drop of bass out of these tiny creatures?
Could something like this with a longer fold and port on top work?
Thanks
Attachments
Posible answer
Here is what I know for sure in regards to your questions:
- the smaller the speaker the better a high Qts to have extra bass (0.5-0.7 range, or even higher) - TB w2-8032 has a Qts of 0.4, not good (I'm talking about TL designs); high Qts gives extension under Fs, and Fs is high at 160hz for real bass
- the smaller the speaker the best they work in near field listening/small rooms (because they are too thin sounding in larger spaces and you have a limited power handling, unless you use lots in a line array)
- you have been told this is a 2" driver which is 1 inch smaller than a 3" driver but in reality Sd is the real measurement and it's almost 3 times smaller than the average 3 inch speaker
- Cyburgs Needle was designed to squeeze every bit off bass in strength and depth of a 3 incher, and is tuned at 45 hz compared to 100-125hz Fs off the drivers used in the enclosure; the limit is usually 0.707Fs (70-88hz)
- the no.1 enclosure for bass is a BIB (bigger is better), placed in corners, however it may not work like that with such a small driver (experimentation recommended)
- the enclosure in your drawing is an expanding TL/bass horn which should have some driver offset to avoid ripples caused by higher harmonics (which may not bother you ear) and that port up there in the sky is not good for bass, you need floor/ceiling/corner loading for best bass response
- a modified Needle will work only by pure luck
- what you need to do is redesign a needle like enclosure (expanding TL tuned to absolute minimum, and large) for you given driver... or just go for a BIB for simplicity
Designing a TL can be done all the way with Martin King's MathCad worksheets (it's not free) or not exactly all the way with Hornresp but for free. A BIB would be the biggest enclosure with 1.59 liters ("official" formula result, V=20Vas*Qts^1.25) which is many times smaller than a ~14 liter Cyburg's Needle, and you will have a tuning frequency of 80hz.
That 1.59 liter info changes things ... you need to make some experiments to see what the driver likes and what not. Something tells me you will not get a floor standing enclosure as you probably wished.
At least this is what the general theory indicates.. you might want to look at other people that tried to get bass out of such a small driver, what kind of approach they had.
Here is what I know for sure in regards to your questions:
- the smaller the speaker the better a high Qts to have extra bass (0.5-0.7 range, or even higher) - TB w2-8032 has a Qts of 0.4, not good (I'm talking about TL designs); high Qts gives extension under Fs, and Fs is high at 160hz for real bass
- the smaller the speaker the best they work in near field listening/small rooms (because they are too thin sounding in larger spaces and you have a limited power handling, unless you use lots in a line array)
- you have been told this is a 2" driver which is 1 inch smaller than a 3" driver but in reality Sd is the real measurement and it's almost 3 times smaller than the average 3 inch speaker
- Cyburgs Needle was designed to squeeze every bit off bass in strength and depth of a 3 incher, and is tuned at 45 hz compared to 100-125hz Fs off the drivers used in the enclosure; the limit is usually 0.707Fs (70-88hz)
- the no.1 enclosure for bass is a BIB (bigger is better), placed in corners, however it may not work like that with such a small driver (experimentation recommended)
- the enclosure in your drawing is an expanding TL/bass horn which should have some driver offset to avoid ripples caused by higher harmonics (which may not bother you ear) and that port up there in the sky is not good for bass, you need floor/ceiling/corner loading for best bass response
- a modified Needle will work only by pure luck
- what you need to do is redesign a needle like enclosure (expanding TL tuned to absolute minimum, and large) for you given driver... or just go for a BIB for simplicity
Designing a TL can be done all the way with Martin King's MathCad worksheets (it's not free) or not exactly all the way with Hornresp but for free. A BIB would be the biggest enclosure with 1.59 liters ("official" formula result, V=20Vas*Qts^1.25) which is many times smaller than a ~14 liter Cyburg's Needle, and you will have a tuning frequency of 80hz.
That 1.59 liter info changes things ... you need to make some experiments to see what the driver likes and what not. Something tells me you will not get a floor standing enclosure as you probably wished.
At least this is what the general theory indicates.. you might want to look at other people that tried to get bass out of such a small driver, what kind of approach they had.
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Thank you for the input Sir!
Having read up a bit on these BiB-thingies, I think they are next on my to-do list. But impatient as I am, 6.4litre Tower enclosures are almost done.
(well - one of them anyways. Ripped the leads on one of the TB's during solidering.. new one is ordered!)
I am quite amazed of the amount of bass these can produce so far, but the midrange sounds a bit hollow. Will add more stuffing to the top of the cabinets to see if that might help.
Good to know! I'm learning something new every day.
These where about half the price of the Peerless 2" available where I live, thats really the only reason why I ended up with the TB's...
The room is a 2mx3m bedroom and the speakers stands in the corners. Power handling does not seem to be an issue.
You are correct. I would say it is neary impossible understanding just how tiny they are before you see them in real life. They are sooooo cute, kind of like kittens only better since TB's don't grow up.
The current boxes does not have any hornloading going on, only a 80x15mm slot at the bottom of the front plate (port length currently 35mm)
More of a Tabaq clone I guess?
I will mess around with port sizes and KCH tone generator for a while before finishing the boxes.
To be continued!
Edit: English could always be better..
Having read up a bit on these BiB-thingies, I think they are next on my to-do list. But impatient as I am, 6.4litre Tower enclosures are almost done.
(well - one of them anyways. Ripped the leads on one of the TB's during solidering.. new one is ordered!)
I am quite amazed of the amount of bass these can produce so far, but the midrange sounds a bit hollow. Will add more stuffing to the top of the cabinets to see if that might help.
Good to know! I'm learning something new every day.
These where about half the price of the Peerless 2" available where I live, thats really the only reason why I ended up with the TB's...
The room is a 2mx3m bedroom and the speakers stands in the corners. Power handling does not seem to be an issue.
You are correct. I would say it is neary impossible understanding just how tiny they are before you see them in real life. They are sooooo cute, kind of like kittens only better since TB's don't grow up.
The current boxes does not have any hornloading going on, only a 80x15mm slot at the bottom of the front plate (port length currently 35mm)
More of a Tabaq clone I guess?
I will mess around with port sizes and KCH tone generator for a while before finishing the boxes.
To be continued!
Edit: English could always be better..
Attachments
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I have measured and used this driver. I like many aspects of it, however, you should know that below about 500 Hz the distortion starts to climb to unacceptable levels. As a result, it's not well suited to serve as a full-ranger.
Have you considered a 2-awy using it as a low-crossover-point tweeter?
-Charlie
Have you considered a 2-awy using it as a low-crossover-point tweeter?
-Charlie
That doesn't sound to good.. what distortion are we talking about here, could you please expand on that?
I am in no way any audiophile so the unacceptable might be accepted
But thanks for pointing it out
The point of the build (kind of) is to make a 2" single driver full-range speaker, so a 1 1/2 or 2 way system is out.
Which driver would be optimal for such a thing?
I am in no way any audiophile so the unacceptable might be accepted
But thanks for pointing it out
The point of the build (kind of) is to make a 2" single driver full-range speaker, so a 1 1/2 or 2 way system is out.
Which driver would be optimal for such a thing?
Re
Ok, so that's a small room...
The enclosure that you've built is not a TABAQ replica, it's just an enclosure with the same architecture of a TABAQ, a mass loaded transmission line. It won't work as a TABAQ for a smaller driver unless you got lucky, but I doubt it since it's much much larger in relation to the driver. However with TL's the volume can be increased very much but there is a point where the increase in volume doesn't get you much in return, for example you might double the volume of a TL and still get the same sound. If volume/size of the enclosure is not a restriction the next principle to apply is horn loading to gain SPL in bass frequencies.
The tower you have there has a tuning frequency lower than the length of the pipe would suggest (1/4 wavelength formula) because of the port at the end of the line.
Move those towers around the room from center to corner to see how much you gain, that's essentially horn loading effect. You could make some real horns for those 2", the Qts is relatively low, Bl is relatively high, the enclosure won't be vast.
You can recognize distortions given by small drivers when faced with too low frequencies when you play a pure tone (sinus) and you hear other things too not just the original clean sound; you can record it from 10cm or so and look at the graph to compare it with the original sinus wave, it is the best way to understand what happens to the motion of the cone.
Ok, so that's a small room...
The enclosure that you've built is not a TABAQ replica, it's just an enclosure with the same architecture of a TABAQ, a mass loaded transmission line. It won't work as a TABAQ for a smaller driver unless you got lucky, but I doubt it since it's much much larger in relation to the driver. However with TL's the volume can be increased very much but there is a point where the increase in volume doesn't get you much in return, for example you might double the volume of a TL and still get the same sound. If volume/size of the enclosure is not a restriction the next principle to apply is horn loading to gain SPL in bass frequencies.
The tower you have there has a tuning frequency lower than the length of the pipe would suggest (1/4 wavelength formula) because of the port at the end of the line.
Move those towers around the room from center to corner to see how much you gain, that's essentially horn loading effect. You could make some real horns for those 2", the Qts is relatively low, Bl is relatively high, the enclosure won't be vast.
You can recognize distortions given by small drivers when faced with too low frequencies when you play a pure tone (sinus) and you hear other things too not just the original clean sound; you can record it from 10cm or so and look at the graph to compare it with the original sinus wave, it is the best way to understand what happens to the motion of the cone.
Don't really know how they sound yet as they are not done.
I'm probably not the right person to ask either as I have rather limited experience with small size full rangers. Or full rangers in general to be honest..
But so far I think they sound very good - price and size considered. With a bit of Equalizing they produce enough bass for me to develop "that stupid grin" as well.
Woodwork and painting will be done this weekend
P.S. Thanks for a very inspirational thread, and please do the minis!
I'm probably not the right person to ask either as I have rather limited experience with small size full rangers. Or full rangers in general to be honest..
But so far I think they sound very good - price and size considered. With a bit of Equalizing they produce enough bass for me to develop "that stupid grin" as well.
Woodwork and painting will be done this weekend
P.S. Thanks for a very inspirational thread, and please do the minis!
TABAQ MICRO ?
Hi AggroMagnet.
I have modelled the entire evening and came up with something that might be interesting. One thing is computer simulation, but I am curious enough to try it. This is not hi-fi but hi-fun.
I have attached the plot, and it looks like there could be some "stupid grin factor"
I have used a relatively large volume, trying to get as much out the driver as possible.
Hi from Bjorn J
Hi AggroMagnet.
I have modelled the entire evening and came up with something that might be interesting. One thing is computer simulation, but I am curious enough to try it. This is not hi-fi but hi-fun.
I have attached the plot, and it looks like there could be some "stupid grin factor"
I have used a relatively large volume, trying to get as much out the driver as possible.
Hi from Bjorn J
Thanks Bjorn!
The internal dimensions of mine are 895x80x89, what are the dimensions of the boxes in your simulation?
I guess WinISD cannot be used for TL? I got a graph (attached) that looks kind of like yours, but less appealing..
Indeed it is. Please post your result should you decide to go for it.
The internal dimensions of mine are 895x80x89, what are the dimensions of the boxes in your simulation?
I guess WinISD cannot be used for TL? I got a graph (attached) that looks kind of like yours, but less appealing..
Indeed it is. Please post your result should you decide to go for it.
Attachments
Hi AggroMagnet,
what I know something about is MJK´s models, which are accurate and advanced in terms of parameters used to predict the result.
I have enclosed my prelimenary working paper. I will do some more simulations the coming days. Once I have the physical shape of the cabinet, I will simulate baffle step circuit - which is also done in MJK´s models.
Hi from
Bjorn J
what I know something about is MJK´s models, which are accurate and advanced in terms of parameters used to predict the result.
I have enclosed my prelimenary working paper. I will do some more simulations the coming days. Once I have the physical shape of the cabinet, I will simulate baffle step circuit - which is also done in MJK´s models.
Hi from
Bjorn J
Attachments
Lol @ the optimist..
Has at least made some progress. Ports final tune ended at 79Hz (again, according to WinISD)
Having it tuned to 79 vs. 95 didn't seem to make much of a difference in real life though. This again could have something to do with the stuffing..
The top is now stuffed comletely, and dampening on all of the back wall.
This was necessary to get rid of the hollow midrange mentioned earlier, but has dampened the bass a bit.
Made new bottom plates optimized for corners, they seem to prefer that location
Here sitting next to some B&W 686 5" to illustrate size
Attachments
Good to hear
Tried with a different camera today, a bit less noise:
Tangband 2 inch fullrange speakers - YouTube
Internal dimensions same as earlier, 895x80x89mm.
Port size 80x8mm with 35mm length, tuned for 78hz.
Box is otherwise empty, not counting the stuffing.
Had to make that goofy foot to stabilize them a bit..
Tried with a different camera today, a bit less noise:
Tangband 2 inch fullrange speakers - YouTube
Internal dimensions same as earlier, 895x80x89mm.
Port size 80x8mm with 35mm length, tuned for 78hz.
Box is otherwise empty, not counting the stuffing.
Had to make that goofy foot to stabilize them a bit..
My version is tuned to about 75 Hz, same as yours, so I expect a good result as well.
I have enclosed the dimensions of the cabinet I will build. The volume is large for this driver, like an infitive baffle. The impedance is not altered by the cabinet, and there is one hump only.
Hi from
Bjorn
I have enclosed the dimensions of the cabinet I will build. The volume is large for this driver, like an infitive baffle. The impedance is not altered by the cabinet, and there is one hump only.
Hi from
Bjorn
I suspect you will
I think flush mounting is next on mine - the driver poking out of the flat front isn't very pretty either..
What effect would mounting the driver from behind give?
Like this i mean:
Pictures stolen from interwebs (http://nama.ne.jp/audio/W2-803SM.html)
I think flush mounting is next on mine - the driver poking out of the flat front isn't very pretty either..
What effect would mounting the driver from behind give?
Like this i mean:
Pictures stolen from interwebs (http://nama.ne.jp/audio/W2-803SM.html)
I now have 4 more of these drivers in need of a "home".
2 will be used for Tabaq, while I want to try Voigt pipes for the other two.
Im thinking about 200cm tall, 4cm wide and 16cm deep (at the bottom). All internal measures.
Will going this narrow give me any potential issues with low frequency reproduction?
2 will be used for Tabaq, while I want to try Voigt pipes for the other two.
Im thinking about 200cm tall, 4cm wide and 16cm deep (at the bottom). All internal measures.
Will going this narrow give me any potential issues with low frequency reproduction?
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