That said though, some people measure with a $2 panasonic capsule. And it works darn good too. You could do it too
Beaming is only related to angle. However, the closer you are, the more small movements change angle.
I'll have to look into the 2 buck option! Is there Mac friendly software or is it windows? I can run it under emulation on the Mac but prefer native. What do you use/recommend and if you don't mind me asking what are the costs?
As for beaming I sit about 10ft from the Emken's which are facing straight (ie no toe in) with the tweeters on the cabs in the outside position. They are 2ft from the sidewalls and 6 from the back wall (all measurements made after some local beer and with my tongue sticking out
) I get ok depth in all 3 seats on the couch but only get image and 'nearly' no speakers in the central seat. I know that integrating the tweeter into the baffle will benefit the image as I had them like this in a previous set up. Be interested to see what you guys come up with.Also I should mention that my 12LTA is 50mm from the top of the front baffle unlike the design states and Chris built. I was having difficulty with 'perceived' weakness in the 18mm birch ply and the cuts required. However it was 'designed in' as well as I can get the tweeters into the corner above, REALLy close to the 12LTA
Mine are 44mm dia 62.5mm long and about 38mm before the transition starts
I got mine made
I hav eone of those 2-buck mics. But also a calibrated cheap Dayton, 3 cheap beringher (calibrated) & 1 not. I use (not often enuff for FR) Fuzzmeasure and an Edirol FA66 mic pre ADC/DAC. An old Dual G5 tower (gifted to me) for music server, but likely the Core2 Duo for FR measures (especially outdoors (wher ei should easily be able to get 15' before the 1st reflection (issues with holding the mic in the right place abound thou).
dave
I think REW works on Mac now. It's free, but throw the guy a few bucks. I'm changing over to REW now. It's got an amazing suite of measurement abilities. It's no longer a room eq wizard (REW). It's very comprehensive.
I just gave my last panasonic away or I'd offer, but it's very handy. Much easier to use than my Behringer because it's just a mini jack.
I just gave my last panasonic away or I'd offer, but it's very handy. Much easier to use than my Behringer because it's just a mini jack.
Thanks, yes, it does, so guessing it's a rubbery type of sealant that may need to be extended further down the cone and/or a diluted amount added to the whizzer bell. Given my druthers though, I prefer the sonic signature of the traditional dope.
GM
True, but my point was that at 12" - up, one really needs a coax unless the XO point is either down around 1.3-1.5 kHz or only way up high for a bit of top end 'air'.
Well, my memory says they were ~$700/pr., but if the $540 for a single is today's rate, there's better bang/buck from offshore brands, though not as 'sweet' sounding in my limited experience.
GM
Like a HE 12" coupled to a separate compression horn except with the 'oneness' of a single driver, i.e. excellent in both the near and far-field with a much larger 'sweet spot'.
This pairing makes no sense to me unless the woofer is coupled to a 35 Hz BLH and even then, most of its extended HF that one is paying dearly for will have to be XO'd out.
Ribbons have a very wide horizontal 'sweet spot', so to match up with a 12" it requires a XO point maybe too low for it work well, not to mention much of the SWR-300's HF will need to be XO'd out also. At 6-10 kHz, the ribbon will need a WG to ~match it up.
Overall, seems like a lot of wasted time/$$$/effort to me.
GM
That was a quick move! Can I ask what your preferred amp would be? I'm using a 'soon to be battery powered' TK2050 amp from Hifimediy.com at the moment but am thinking something with more current grip maybe.
And whats pluff
That was a quick move! Can I ask what your preferred amp would be? I'm using a 'soon to be battery powered' TK2050 amp from Hifimediy.com at the moment but am thinking something with more current grip maybe.
And whats pluff
my interpretation of pluff was some cotton wool encircling the interface between the whizzer cone and the main cone, from my reading it is to help eradicate any distortion or resonance occurring between the 2 surfaces. i'm yet to try this however as i was meaning to ask Dave which part of the sound it audibly helps in the beta 12lta. seems to help smaller 'whizzed' fostex drivers with the higher frequencies but these type drivers don't get up very high.
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thanks for the critique. tweeters were second hand, just picked up to see how the 12" drivers sounded with high end support. i shall do some enquiries about the aforementioned co-axial.
can i ask what the audible effect would be of pairing something with high horizontal spread to a large driver with a very narrow listening area would be, if the tweeters were employed as supertweeters in such a way? i am yet to set up the experiment to find out for myself
Depends on a few things (xo point, directivity, room), but considering you say a narrow listening area, it'll have a strong presence right near the xo and above. The xo will show itself.
Moving up in frequency, the woofer will start to beam and become directional therefore reflections off the walls will be minimal. Then once that wide dispersion tweeter comes on, it'll fire all over the walls and give a pronounced/forward tonal balance right there. I'm generalizing though.
As an extreme example, imagine the woofer being very directional like the sound is coming straight from the cone to your ear. Then the high frequencies come from the room and all around. It's the tweeter making the sound, but it comes from all over.
Both are fine ways of making music, but they shouldn't happen together. Best to either be all directional, or all omnidirectional. Or in between.If you cross high enough, it might not be noticeable. But then it might also not accomplish your goals, if you goal is to fill in the 4khz and up region for example.
There's probably more I'm missing.
I think this might be a good way to go with this project (given my limited knowledge of the project): Denovo Mini Elliptical - Tweeters - Drivers DIY Sound Group
I'll be in MN in June. I might pick up a few. But the bare waveguides from Eric interest me more.
I'll be in MN in June. I might pick up a few. But the bare waveguides from Eric interest me more.
Some further observations after humping these up the stairs and into salon Dlugos yesterday evening and a short listening session:
- sure am glad we switched over to BB ply years ago - in MDF these would be a real pig to move
- no question about the 12TA's effortless dynamics and room filling capacity that have been mentioned before, but even with the 98cent tweak ( cotton batten in this case), phase plugs and the quickie connection of small horn tweeters ( FT17H?) - there are still issues with the tonality of these guys that certainly seem to correspond to the 6dB trough in FR centered around 4kHz, and then the steep drop above 6k.
- for serious music listening, I'd probably want to properly XO them (circa 3500-4k?), and of course let Dave go nutso with the polka dots and modge-podge
- viscerality abounds with these - subtlety / finesse - not so much
as Dave commented the whizzer is larger than the emitting surface of several of our favorite FRangers ( EL70/ Alpair7 - FF125WK)
think Cummins diesel Ram 3500 crew cab / Lotus Eterne
...
now back to the scheduled programming
- sure am glad we switched over to BB ply years ago - in MDF these would be a real pig to move
- no question about the 12TA's effortless dynamics and room filling capacity that have been mentioned before, but even with the 98cent tweak ( cotton batten in this case), phase plugs and the quickie connection of small horn tweeters ( FT17H?) - there are still issues with the tonality of these guys that certainly seem to correspond to the 6dB trough in FR centered around 4kHz, and then the steep drop above 6k.
- for serious music listening, I'd probably want to properly XO them (circa 3500-4k?), and of course let Dave go nutso with the polka dots and modge-podge
- viscerality abounds with these - subtlety / finesse - not so much
as Dave commented the whizzer is larger than the emitting surface of several of our favorite FRangers ( EL70/ Alpair7 - FF125WK)
think Cummins diesel Ram 3500 crew cab / Lotus Eterne
...
now back to the scheduled programming
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Depends on a few things (xo point, directivity, room), but considering you say a narrow listening area, it'll have a strong presence right near the xo and above. The xo will show itself.
Moving up in frequency, the woofer will start to beam and become directional therefore reflections off the walls will be minimal. Then once that wide dispersion tweeter comes on, it'll fire all over the walls and give a pronounced/forward tonal balance right there. I'm generalizing though.
As an extreme example, imagine the woofer being very directional like the sound is coming straight from the cone to your ear. Then the high frequencies come from the room and all around. It's the tweeter making the sound, but it comes from all over.
If you cross high enough, it might not be noticeable. But then it might also not accomplish your goals, if you goal is to fill in the 4khz and up region for example.
There's probably more I'm missing.
i was under the impression that systems such as F.A.S.T and with with full range designs, the aim was to keep any crossovers out of the hearing range that we are most sensitive (1.5-7.5khz?) and directionality(?) was the most apparent. just outside of these ranges crossovers carried less impact and at the very extremes of our hearing range, the sound was very non directional. thus my thinking was that a super tweeter crossed over in the 9-10khz region would simply add an airiness and sparkle to the sound, whilst adding subwoofer support <100hz would add bass impact without being directional? the range outside of this (100-10khz) would be covered by a large driver, meaning that once i get my listening spot they should then provide a better image than a system consisting of multiple units covering multiple ranges in the range we're most sensitive? the larger driver also giving me the size of sound that i crave the most.
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Gafhenderson - Yup, you're on the right track. It's why I said if you cross high enough the directivity mismatch might not be noticeable (+/-10khz). But then if the mid driver can't get that high well, you may still be missing something.
Either way it'll be a compromise. Crossing lower might accomplish some goals, like better treble, but introduce lobing or directivity mismatch into the critical ranges. Crossing higher will keep those problems out, but miss out on sweet treble and get more severe lobing (albeit less noticeable). Making those compromises is up to you.
One of the speakers I'm working on right now was being crossed at 1400hz. It has a cross over in a pretty deadly place. Uses 8" woofer and 8" horn. And yes, it's been a real pain. I've now moved it to 950hz. Getting directivity match and flat FR has been very challenging (and very fun ). With the higher cross over, the cross over was heard. Had to change. Now it's... well it's very good imo. The point is, you will want to try both ways and find out for yourself.
Either way it'll be a compromise. Crossing lower might accomplish some goals, like better treble, but introduce lobing or directivity mismatch into the critical ranges. Crossing higher will keep those problems out, but miss out on sweet treble and get more severe lobing (albeit less noticeable). Making those compromises is up to you.
One of the speakers I'm working on right now was being crossed at 1400hz. It has a cross over in a pretty deadly place. Uses 8" woofer and 8" horn. And yes, it's been a real pain. I've now moved it to 950hz. Getting directivity match and flat FR has been very challenging (and very fun
). With the higher cross over, the cross over was heard. Had to change. Now it's... well it's very good imo. The point is, you will want to try both ways and find out for yourself.gaf -
re a "FAST" with the 12TLA crossing over well below the critical range - yes that's certainly possible, and at $80 a piece, they still offer good value, but I think for that application there are other candidates
considering what I assume was part of the design brief for the EmKen (i.e. maximize use of its bandwidth / sensitivity), I'd imagine that a more conventional 2-way would better fit the bill
don't forget that many Pro PA systems will XO to large compression driven horns in the 500-800Hz range - not exactly in the middle of the most critical range, but higher than I'd ideally want to use in a FAST myself
try to find consensus on this
re a "FAST" with the 12TLA crossing over well below the critical range - yes that's certainly possible, and at $80 a piece, they still offer good value, but I think for that application there are other candidates
considering what I assume was part of the design brief for the EmKen (i.e. maximize use of its bandwidth / sensitivity), I'd imagine that a more conventional 2-way would better fit the bill
don't forget that many Pro PA systems will XO to large compression driven horns in the 500-800Hz range - not exactly in the middle of the most critical range, but higher than I'd ideally want to use in a FAST myself
try to find consensus on this
Gafhenderson - Yup, you're on the right track. It's why I said if you cross high enough the directivity mismatch might not be noticeable (+/-10khz). But then if the mid driver can't get that high well, you may still be missing something.
Either way it'll be a compromise. Crossing lower might accomplish some goals, like better treble, but introduce lobing or directivity mismatch into the critical ranges. Crossing higher will keep those problems out, but miss out on sweet treble and get more severe lobing (albeit less noticeable). Making those compromises is up to you.
One of the speakers I'm working on right now was being crossed at 1400hz. It has a cross over in a pretty deadly place. Uses 8" woofer and 8" horn. And yes, it's been a real pain. I've now moved it to 950hz. Getting directivity match and flat FR has been very challenging (and very fun
yeah i figured i would get it wrong a few times before i get it right. you get a better appreciation for the correct way by learning from your mistakes i find.
i've been quoted approx $250 for the drivers GM showed me, so this is a fairly inexpensive alternative to the previously mentioned drivers.
i want midrange presence. the upper regions of sound usually annoy me if they're too pronounced, i usually EQ them down to by about 10db. like i've said previously i had some MA drivers, which were nice and accurate and produced surprising bass for such tiny things, whilst also delivering treble like a tweeter. the problem was they sounded small and the midrange really didn't stand out for me. these big PA things being discussed in this thread are far from perfect but are much closer the size and impact of the sound i want in that middle region.
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