Listening thought
Here are some excerpts from emails of my listening notes as they progressed:
'Listening to them as they are - Bass is deep but appears to struggle low low down. For some reason I think it sounds as if the driver need more 'air' pressure behind it - Thats not from a technical design standpoint but rather a feeling from the sound compared to my 3+ cft sealed enclosures before. The bass is much deeper however. Do you think the needled wool help?' - This was pre needled wool and holey brace
'Once braced & lined with needled wool the sound is absolutely amazing. A complete reversal from the undamped, unbraced box. I've only managed to get one completed..... Having one complete and the other unbraced & unlined allows for good comparison though - bass has flattened (reduced a small amount I think) and sound actually seems more extended in the upper registers as well. I'm a low level listener as I'm in an apartment but they leave very little wanting. Its only the bite of the super tweeter I crave.' - One done & one on the way
'Both units are now braced & lined. They are 2/3 of the way along my room firing straight with FT17H resting on top in the outside position. Imaging is really quite impressive for jury rigged layout with loads of depth as you'd expect from their placement. I guessing the 45deg edges help with that as well? Bass is strong but even - I'm learning that I was overdoing it before!! I thought the sound was maybe a bit mid-centric, so compared a couple of tracks with my headphone/amp/dac/imac system. It appears to be very near perfect, not needing great lumps of power to reproduce the whole signal. Any imperfections I am laying any issues solely at the feet of my old, soft sounding amp that will soon be replaced by a hifimediy amp I need to recommission.' - New amps gives these speakers a better signal - oooo they sound great now
'Still living the dream! A couple of musician friends are very impressed with the sound. Sax/Clarinet player (played with the HM Para's band & big bands on the side), who has no home stereo because 'they all sound unnatural' was blown away playing David Sanborn & classical clarinet pieces - said he could hear the reed......' - These speakers only impress my friends, many of whom are musicians
Here are some excerpts from emails of my listening notes as they progressed:
'Listening to them as they are - Bass is deep but appears to struggle low low down. For some reason I think it sounds as if the driver need more 'air' pressure behind it - Thats not from a technical design standpoint but rather a feeling from the sound compared to my 3+ cft sealed enclosures before. The bass is much deeper however. Do you think the needled wool help?' - This was pre needled wool and holey brace
'Once braced & lined with needled wool the sound is absolutely amazing. A complete reversal from the undamped, unbraced box. I've only managed to get one completed..... Having one complete and the other unbraced & unlined allows for good comparison though - bass has flattened (reduced a small amount I think) and sound actually seems more extended in the upper registers as well. I'm a low level listener as I'm in an apartment but they leave very little wanting. Its only the bite of the super tweeter I crave.' - One done & one on the way
'Both units are now braced & lined. They are 2/3 of the way along my room firing straight with FT17H resting on top in the outside position. Imaging is really quite impressive for jury rigged layout with loads of depth as you'd expect from their placement. I guessing the 45deg edges help with that as well? Bass is strong but even - I'm learning that I was overdoing it before!! I thought the sound was maybe a bit mid-centric, so compared a couple of tracks with my headphone/amp/dac/imac system. It appears to be very near perfect, not needing great lumps of power to reproduce the whole signal. Any imperfections I am laying any issues solely at the feet of my old, soft sounding amp that will soon be replaced by a hifimediy amp I need to recommission.' - New amps gives these speakers a better signal - oooo they sound great now
'Still living the dream! A couple of musician friends are very impressed with the sound. Sax/Clarinet player (played with the HM Para's band & big bands on the side), who has no home stereo because 'they all sound unnatural' was blown away playing David Sanborn & classical clarinet pieces - said he could hear the reed......' - These speakers only impress my friends, many of whom are musicians
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Compared to the 11+ ft^3 Onken concept I sketched up some years ago when this driver was getting a lot of air play, this looks like a micro.
GM
I would expect favorably. Although the Decware looks like an onken I don't believe it's a true aperiodic design like Dave's. Steve claims it's folly to design a speaker based on ts parameters because they are never accurate (doubt that he's ever tested Mark Audios) but I don't know if that's true of the lta. Only one way to find out for sure though - eh? eh?
No, just look at its calculated +6 dB peaking at Fb to provide a SE amp's tube like bass 'warmth'.
The averaged measured specs I collected some years ago averaged a ~6% too small a cab, so assuming Eminence is still holding to the time honored ~10% manufacturing variance, over-sizing the cab ~10% + driver, bracing, etc. losses should be sufficient for allowing a bit of Qt rise due to small amounts of added series resistance and/or VC heating.
That said, few folks bother and the slightly under-damped response is usually swamped by the room's impact + folk's tend to deal with it by ear with internal damping if it's enough to obviously 'boom' and/or affect the mids tone, so in the scheme of things, using measured specs is good enough unless they're as far off as some manufacturer's flat out false advertising and/or going to be driven with a high output impedance.
GM
The averaged measured specs I collected some years ago averaged a ~6% too small a cab, so assuming Eminence is still holding to the time honored ~10% manufacturing variance, over-sizing the cab ~10% + driver, bracing, etc. losses should be sufficient for allowing a bit of Qt rise due to small amounts of added series resistance and/or VC heating.
That said, few folks bother and the slightly under-damped response is usually swamped by the room's impact + folk's tend to deal with it by ear with internal damping if it's enough to obviously 'boom' and/or affect the mids tone, so in the scheme of things, using measured specs is good enough unless they're as far off as some manufacturer's flat out false advertising and/or going to be driven with a high output impedance.
GM
No, its multiple vents adds a resistive component due to all the vent's surface area, not that it matters much as the n = 6.34 alignment has peaking at Fb and its vent harmonics 'color' its mids BW.
A true aperiodic means 'without period', so for a speaker alignment this means its impedance peak is 100% damped, so typically the only true aperiodic speaker is a properly designed, well stuffed TL or 'ideal' BLH.
Don't recall ever seeing even a sim of a Fonken, so no clue how close to aperiodic it is. Ideally, we need a measured impedance to find out.
GM
A true aperiodic means 'without period', so for a speaker alignment this means its impedance peak is 100% damped, so typically the only true aperiodic speaker is a properly designed, well stuffed TL or 'ideal' BLH.
Don't recall ever seeing even a sim of a Fonken, so no clue how close to aperiodic it is. Ideally, we need a measured impedance to find out.
GM
>>> and its vent harmonics 'color' its mids...
Oh, that sounds interesting. Who doesn't want a little color? I love a bit of personality with my speakers. Thanks GM.
I wonder if an Onken falls into the same territory as a Karlson (never had the pleasure of hearing either) by having its own distinctive personality (with its fans and detractors).
Having been hooked on OB the past year and without time to experiment and build i wonder about a lot of things.
JRKO, are you placing these new speakers into corners? I know you were accustomed to two 15" drivers pounding out bass so it will be interesting how you acclimate yourself to 'smaller' speakers with less drivers. Please continue to let us know.
Oh, that sounds interesting. Who doesn't want a little color? I love a bit of personality with my speakers. Thanks GM.
I wonder if an Onken falls into the same territory as a Karlson (never had the pleasure of hearing either) by having its own distinctive personality (with its fans and detractors).
Having been hooked on OB the past year and without time to experiment and build i wonder about a lot of things.
JRKO, are you placing these new speakers into corners? I know you were accustomed to two 15" drivers pounding out bass so it will be interesting how you acclimate yourself to 'smaller' speakers with less drivers. Please continue to let us know.
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When I tell my friends these are 'little speakers' they just look confused. I'm 6"5' and 260lb so almost everything is little for me
They are 2/3 of the way along my room in free air firing down its length. They are pointed straight and true rather than being toed in, wit the FT17H in outside positions on top. I would say the bass is very accurate and plenty deep for 'normal listening' and low level, evening listening.
I just have this idea of a 3rd unit of a similar size in the middle with 2x 15" doing duty. I just can't forget that tight, bottomless bass......
Guess I'm wrong again!
see my signature line
- works both ways actually
You're welcome! Actually, I like mine a bit on the 'dry' side, but I assume it's mostly due to having ~life long tinnitus.
I've only done one true 'Onken', the Altec 360, but a number of the Jensen Ultraflexes it's based on as well as similar equally large single vent MLTLs and the latter are a bit better damped with little/no audibly 'colored' mids, so my preference and what I recommend in lieu of either.
The various Karlsons are either 4th, 6th or 8th order band-pass alignments, so no comparison since they will typically have a much more efficient mid-bass with more resonant mids and less bass than the large reflexes.
GM
Thanks, I assumed as much, but always nice to know for sure.
Looks like what I strive for in my MLTL alignments and knowing how 'tight' they sound, no doubt yours do too.Here's the simmed impedance for my ~10.58 ft^3 net MLTL:
GM
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Thinking about the Emken; they seem to make a nice fullranger "base" which could be extended top and bottom, if later one desires more top and bottom end
So, bass: I don't know how low they go, but being that Eminence is 12" fullrange driver, it may need help below 50 Hz or so. If one has a couple of 15" that could do bass, why not build a pair of such subs:
Sub-Woofer Controller
Top end: If one is not happy with the top end of Emken by itself, then it seems like a good base for F.A.S.T. type speaker. Add your favourite 3" driver on top of Emken. May be in a spheric enclosure to reduce diffraction. Could be Fostex, Markaudio, or this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/185427-3d-sound-2.html#post2937494
First order crossover, anywhere from 250-1000 hz , depending on the fullranger. The drawback would be decreased sensitivity (matched to the fullrage one), passively or better actively...
Just my thoughts....
So, bass: I don't know how low they go, but being that Eminence is 12" fullrange driver, it may need help below 50 Hz or so. If one has a couple of 15" that could do bass, why not build a pair of such subs:
Sub-Woofer Controller
Top end: If one is not happy with the top end of Emken by itself, then it seems like a good base for F.A.S.T. type speaker. Add your favourite 3" driver on top of Emken. May be in a spheric enclosure to reduce diffraction. Could be Fostex, Markaudio, or this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/185427-3d-sound-2.html#post2937494
First order crossover, anywhere from 250-1000 hz , depending on the fullranger. The drawback would be decreased sensitivity (matched to the fullrage one), passively or better actively...
Just my thoughts....
Like many wide range drivers the 12lta is easy to enhance on top and bottom. It just does it at 97db per watt. To keep the cabinet as slim as possible a 12" powered woofer could be used. On top I happen to like the way Eminence's 1001 tweeter sounds with a 1.0uf cap (plus or minus .5uf to taste). The radio shack pod will be ok too but to me it sounds too delicate (many will like this). The 12lta's personality is a bit more bombastic and is suited by a woofer and tweeter that match it's enthusiastic performance.
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