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Old 19th September 2012, 11:30 PM   #531
sippy is offline sippy  United Kingdom
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Indeed.......
I got so miffed at having to do just that Etyocynned, I put the drive unit in the cabinet and with a pair of pliers quite simply bent the flange outwards a bit.

After listening to them for about 20mins, I dug out a pair of tweeters - these came out of a pair of MS10.1's and have a mylar diaphragm - attached them to the blanking plate to fit over the hole for the Fostex tweets and wired them in with nowt between the amp / tweet but wire.
Vast improvement even though there's an spl miss-match.
3hrs listening so far, so as my ears/brain have not adjusted to the new sound, there will be no critique beyond they sound well worth continuing with. This is with short venting, not fully lined and not fully braced.
Holly Cole sounds as sexy as ever :-)
Thanks Dave and Chris for the design.
Thanks all for keeping my spirits up.
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Old 20th September 2012, 01:55 AM   #532
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Hooray! I keep looking at this build, and more and more i see it as something to invest in.

They arent actually that big, they wouldnt stand out in my current room.

I saw a finish on some onkens on this site, dark, dark mahogany, almost black. And this red came out, it was incredible. Anyone recognize it?

my floor tile is white and green with standard issue beige everything else.

These are furniture speakers what ply is everyone using?
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Old 20th September 2012, 02:44 AM   #533
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Most people use 'Baltic Birch' which is void free, but due to problems of finding it at 'reasonable' cost, I went for WBP - yes, its got voids, but considering this is a beta I thought better of shelling out for marine (which also has voids).
If with every thing sorted out and the extra braces they sound good and i can live with them, I will invest the money and build again with BB ply - if these don't start to rattle I may finish this pair.
These are big boxes, don't kid yerself, due to the 45deg bevel on the front, they appear to be smaller than they are and in my room, backed against the wall, they don't intrude too much more than my out-going boxes.
*just finished gaming - the Lta's don't throw the right image - a second pair of LTA's will be ordered shortly........... which will give me something to listen to when these get treatment.....which is bound to happen.
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Old 20th September 2012, 11:30 AM   #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sippy View Post
just finished gaming - the Lta's don't throw the right image - a second pair of LTA's will be ordered shortly........... which will give me something to listen to when these get treatment.....which is bound to happen.
First off well done on getting them up and running. Its been a real challenge for you!!

Can you explain what you mean by 'don't throw the right image?' Have you listened to them with music for some time (more than 3 hours) yet? Your ears need to get used to them before making too many changes or you'll not 'hear the upgrade'. You'd be surprised that you can use them without hi freq assist and the brain fills in rather well. Adding the 'correct' tweeter will bring them on another level. The fullrange sound takes some acclimatisation - no tizzy highs, bloomy/boomy mid bass and no crossover

Gaming is no substitute for listening and should not be used to judge a speakers sound qualities. Especially as its a primarily visual medium where your brain is mostly occupied with visual information and hand eye co-ordination functions - in essence all you are doing is 'hearing' not 'listening'

And a few possibilities - your tweeter with no caps is not going to help especially if they are an sensitivity mismatch (and IIRC high stuff is where spatial clues come from) which will throw things our all over the place. They will be getting all kinds of low freq info and passing thru what they can along with distortions galore. Also are all the drivers wired correctly? Have you positioned the speakers ideally? The phase plugs will help smooth it out as shown before.

I would add the ft17h (if that is your chosen driver), finish lining (which makes a huge difference to the sound) and bracing (another huge difference) them before making changes. You are not listening to a finished speaker until you do. Changes to other parts of the speaker prior to actually completing it can't be judged as improvements as no baseline has been established. Also you are listening to them with a higher tuning (not sure on numbers) so less bass atm

I have listened to them:
1)no tweeter, then
2)add phase plug no tweeter, then
3)add tweeter high crossover 15khz or so, then
4)bring tweeter down to 5-8khz - soon I will move to
5)Enable the driver

I understood each improvement more. You really appreciate the sound growing. Although I understand wanting to get to the end goal in one hit. It is after all the point

keep it up
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Last edited by JRKO; 20th September 2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 20th September 2012, 03:38 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
your tweeter with no caps
Not to mention that you will let the smoke out of them.

dave
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Old 20th September 2012, 04:34 PM   #536
sippy is offline sippy  United Kingdom
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Indeed Dave.

Without re-quoting quotes -
Obviously gaming is highly visual, Race07 / GTR- Evo is a sim, so despite its age its actually quite accurate in the noise effect department. While running the Lta's in, I noted that they were at floor level propped up against my other floor standers:
Very mid-centric. With about 10deg of tilt-back they imaged well enough to depict gravel pings on the floor pan / in arches etc. Could hear all four tires change contact noise, light taps to either bumper sounded like cracking grp with correct height. Reference to these sounds is from real life of not more than 2weeks ago curtesy of a Holbay/Cosworth 2.4l powered Ford Cortina Mk3 race car. Drivers in enclosure - sound in game = wrong, just like my other pair of speakers.
Well worth buying a second pair and making a low in height OB - NOTING that I dont play shoot-em-ups so dont need much in the way of bass
With music: Lta's sound like a huge table top radio - smooth/well recorded music sounded smoother than the polar opposite.

Driver in Enclosure.
I have listened to them:
1)no tweeter, then
2)add phase plug no tweeter, then
3)add tweeter high crossover 15khz or so, then
4)bring tweeter down to 5-8khz - soon I will move to
5)Enable the driver

1) for me, after 4hrs this morning A / B ing with/without tweeter one would need to have hearing damage to describe in any way shape or form the Lta's as long term listenable (AS YET /STOCK) - If I walked into hifi / pro audio shop I would tell the staff to turn them off OR walk out. IT should be noted that the state of vent tune at the moment is just the inner wall with NO extension.....one can hear the LF output but its quite recessed atm.......the wider of the vent extentions are going in, taking a break to write this / give ears a rest. One can quite clearly hear the hills and valleys in the upper response range.
2) Phase Plugs - going by the various graphs and descriptions, plugs will go a fair way in smoothing things out.......no brainer this one, I will fire you a pm JKRO, plugs made out of Pine would do.
3 / 4) I have FT17h, they are sat in a very large box of other stuff, currently in parents dining room, hence the ad-hoc tweets, which definatly help with the top end. I have a few small value caps which will get connected up today.
5) Re: notes on game sound - would be able to do proper A/Bing of driver treatment of any form.

I, and make that a 30pt I, am going from totally stock.
1) 12Lta sans dust-cap, No plugs, no basket dampening / mods, maybe 100rs combined music / flapping cone with test tones is No Substitute for a well thrashed unit.*(signs of basket reflections through cone)
2) Due to the nature of venting adjustment, I cannot easily brace the sides together well enough to satisfy ME. They need to be glued in imho, something that cant be done and retain adj. venting. *(Extentions now in - 30secs of GaGa shows vast improvement in balance)
3) Dampening material: Even if I'd not read anything about P10 desighns,this is a very critical thing - lessons learnt from doing things like stuffing socks, bundles of drinking straws etc in ports, adding / subtracting stuffings and having built a pair of aurally very nice kit speakers taught me plenty. The fact that I dont know where the braces are going to end up means that i dont know where some of the dampings going to go. I'm certain that your damping material is a fair bit denser denser mine.
4) Your (and P10's) boxes Are different to mine. Because I'm 'that' kind of person with a very very wide skill set, I managed to fathom the dimentions of the EmKen to within 'a few %' (took me about an hour!) - this is measured against my set of drawings, which is either Alpha2 or Beta1. They will sound different no matter what.
5) Positioning: Give me chance man! 2ft in from side walls and 8inches from back wall with a toe in at my head. *(now placed to cross in front of me (sevear toe in))
6) Room - If you grabbed the back of my head and shoved ti against a wall in my room, it would go strait through with minimal fuss and pain, my plan sets tuneing sheet describes Your room as a concrete bunker.
*() are comments of listening to non - live reference music but..........
I think, that even though the ad-hoc teets are rather bright, combined with the vent extentions things become some what improved, there is Still the big dip in the Lta's response.
Holly Cole, Temptation - Temptation: Ms Cole sounds almost breathless, some in-breaths sound like she's breathing through a very thin walled wooden tube
Invitatation to the Blues - just heard talking in the background of the first few bars! Not heard that before.
Small image in both instances
Imelda May, Love Tattoo, Smokers Song - Stunning speed re leading edges of double bass notes and good solidity, Piano sounds ok before things get into the tweets area. Mrs May dont seem to display much, if any sibilance or nasality.
Thats enough for the moment.
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Old 20th September 2012, 04:43 PM   #537
sippy is offline sippy  United Kingdom
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End JKRO........... there's an end, but who knows where?
I just realised that I left my mini mag light in one enclosure.
And I just had to have a 'sorta loud' moment, third the way round the dial sans tweets =
The Cyrus2 is Not the amp for these speakers
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Old 20th September 2012, 05:36 PM   #538
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Keep on playing with em!

Sounds like the damping is your main issue at the mo. It really picks up the detail and depth to the sound. Is your holey brace butted up to the magnet? Try them against the wall (should give the bottom end more oomph) and maybe lessen the toe in - whats your room size/setup & listening distance?

Oh and you have a big round hole in the front baffle, just under the 12lta
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Old 20th September 2012, 09:35 PM   #539
sippy is offline sippy  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Sounds like the damping is your main issue at the mo
Wont argue with that mate nor:
Quote:
Try them against the wall
Room = 17' 6"ish by 12' 8" ish...... a slight jiggle of things like will yield 13ft listening distance.
Quote:
Oh and you have a big round hole in the front baffle, just under the 12lta
Nope, there's a small ply plate screwed over that hole, with the tweet screwed, with care, to that.
The brace was cut short of the magnet and then a piece of ply glued / butted up to the installed driver......maybe a shimming is in order
The back flaps about............. its sealed, its got screws every 4 inches and 1/3 of the number are to tie down the back to the brace, maybe I need to uses nuts, bolts, washers and some well placed 2 1/2" x 1" battens.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 02:57 PM   #540
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How are they going sippy - I see we're both interested in the Amp Camp Amp too
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