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Old 4th May 2012, 04:43 PM   #181
sippy is offline sippy  United Kingdom
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Too heavy... hence a practical revision to 15mm ply
I'm 'for' 18mm, decent 15mm is a special order, as boat builders round here have gone to 12mm over 15mm. For 5 or 6 sheets the ordering and shipping cost from out of county is too rich for me.
Having helped a friends band and out-door eventers shift their kit, weight seems to matter not, wheels are a good idea imho for 'pro' usage.
Of course, these things are up to the designer.
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Old 4th May 2012, 05:29 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
Some further observations after humping these up the stairs and into salon Dlugos yesterday evening and a short listening session:

- no question about the 12TA's effortless dynamics and room filling capacity that have been mentioned before, but even with the 98cent tweak ( cotton batten in this case), phase plugs and the quickie connection of small horn tweeters ( FT17H?) - there are still issues with the tonality of these guys that certainly seem to correspond to the 6dB trough in FR centered around 4kHz, and then the steep drop above 6k.

- viscerality abounds with these - subtlety / finesse - not so much

think Cummins diesel Ram 3500 crew cab / Lotus Eterne
Thanks for you thoughts Chris. I like the Cummins/Lotus analogy. I guess towing a trailer, stump pulling and work duties are not everyones ideal 'vehicle' to musical nirvana. Then again I can't comfortably fit into my friends Lotus Exige

I find the power, even at low levels I guess from the high efficiency substitutes for finesse but I have nothing to compare them to. There may be some FF85wKen's in my future - will they do the Lotus position?

I EQ'd in a bump at 4k using iTunes built in EQ (YES I KNOW ) and there was definitely a levelling out even with that blunt tool. Wish I had the 2-buck measuring system. I'd have found out this months ago........
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Old 4th May 2012, 05:53 PM   #183
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
There's probably more I'm missing.
The XO's impact on off axis polar response, especially WRT driver placement, which can be massive with baffle mounted mids-up horn/woofer designs. All things considered then, firing a super-tweeter at the ceiling and/or to the rear, while technically a no-no is probably the best compromise and much easier to dial in since the XO will typically be 1st order in the 20-30 kHz range.

GM
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:21 PM   #184
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
There may be some FF85wKen's in my future - will they do the Lotus position?

nimble, surprisingly dynamic, finely detailed and spacious - but as with any 3" driver, there's no denying they benefit from help in the bass department
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:37 PM   #185
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I had some no doubt idiotic idea of switching between the Emken in FR mode and a simple filter to make them the bass dept for the FF85wKen's. Might work?

BTW Holy poop on stick Batman the little 4k bump I gave the Emken was like an enema on a constipated elephant!!! Its ALL coming out now

Just been rocking the hell out to Beth Hart - Broken & Ugly (Live @ Paradiso) - YouTube
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:41 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
That was a quick move! Can I ask what your preferred amp would be?
Of the amps i have handy, the RH84 monoblok variants. A good solid 4W/channel.

At sometime Bernie will likely bring his Abraxas 2A3, and Chris has a couple SE amps too. We'll have to drag the El Cheapo variant up as well -- still amoungst the very best amps i've heard fro bass within its power limitations (3,2W).

dave
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:45 PM   #187
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is that an all toob army Dave?

I've been wondering about toobs or SS class A like and F5
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Last edited by JRKO; 4th May 2012 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:49 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by gafhenderson View Post
my interpretation of pluff was some cotton wool encircling the interface between the whizzer cone and the main cone, from my reading it is to help eradicate any distortion or resonance occurring between the 2 surfaces.
There are a number of ways of approaching this, search for 98 cent whizzer trick. I used pluff because there was some within easy reach (the dog loves relieving pillows and quilts of their pluff. It was not done with any precision just quick & nasty,

2 things are accomplished, the air space between the whizzer and the main cone is damped and the whizzer is braced against the main cone with a lossy damping mechanism.

Another thing that i will try is the felt spots on the back of the whizzer (ref Goodmans Axiom and Sansui F10)

dave
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Old 4th May 2012, 06:58 PM   #189
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
I had some no doubt idiotic idea of switching between the Emken in FR mode and a simple filter to make them the bass dept for the FF85wKen's. Might work?
well, since Dave has both and lots of amps on hand .......


would make for a interesting pairing for sure

Click the image to open in full size.


Quote:

BTW Holy poop on stick Batman the little 4k bump I gave the Emken was like an enema on a constipated elephant!!! Its ALL coming out now
TMI - and what were you doing with an elephant sized enema kit anyway?


Quote:

Just been rocking the hell out to Beth Hart - Broken & Ugly (Live @ Paradiso) - YouTube
for workout of scale, articulation and inner detail try on for size:

Patricia Barber - "Constantinople", "Post Modern Blues" ( Modern Cool)
Loreena McKennitt - "Huron Beltane Fire Dance" (Nights at Alhambra)
Bela Fleck "Flight of Cosmic Hippo" (shorter reprise -album of same name)
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Old 4th May 2012, 07:09 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
- sure am glad we switched over to BB ply years ago - in MDF these would be a real pig to move
Over on Audio Circle there is an ongoing thread on the broadly similar Tanken (for TB W8-1808), i commented that MDF was not suitable which elicited this narative as to why:

Quote:
Quote:
MDF is suitable!

Q: What properties does MDF exhibit?

A: MDF has many qualities that make it an ideal replacement for plywood or particle board. It is dense, flat, stiff, has no knots and is easily machined. Its fine particles provide dimensional stability without a predominant "grain" (as is the case with lumber). Unlike most plywoods, MDF contains no voids, and will deliver sharp edges with no tearout. MDF is very well damped acoustically thus making it an ideal material for speaker enclosures.
This cabinet is designed using the same push the box resonances out of band so that they are never excited methodology.

Material siffness and resonate qualities are paramount. To get as stiff as 18mm BB you'd need 1 1/4" MDF. But that is a lot heavier so to counter the mass lowering resonance you'd have to use even thicker material, say 1 1/2". Now you have even more issues with energy storage, and, due to it's homogenous nature, low Q resonances, which is counter to the need to keep potential resonances of high Q. So you need to add more braces to push resonances and Q higher.

It is easy to see that all the details will need changing. And even in 18mm ply these boxes will not be light (big strong guy, but more practically 2). To get anything even similar in MDF it would weigh on the order of 3x as much. And it still wouldn't have the finesse or sonics. And likely cost more. Especially if you factor in the health care if the extra weight causes a back injury or lands on your toe.

MDF is not suitable.

dave
Quote:
quickie connection of small horn tweeters ( FT17H?)
The Foster horn out of the Radio Shack pod (the plastic, not aluminum bodied ones). I like it a bit better than the FT17.

Quote:
there are still issues with the tonality of these guys that certainly seem to correspond to the 6dB trough in FR centered around 4kHz, and then the steep drop above 6k.
Last night watching the idiot box there were some places where a hollow colouration was added, as if the actors were recording in an echo booth.

Quote:
for serious music listening, I'd probably want to properly XO them (circa 3500-4k?)
We'll see where, but i concur.... The tweeters i am using are probably limited to 4-5k (3rd order), if it could be mated with a 1st order electrical, 2nd order acoustic on the 12LTA we'd be away to the races. Sensitivity is already broadly the same (using a 2uF cap ATM)

Quote:
and of course let Dave go nutso with the polka dots and modge-podge
Got to give them a good pounding 1st, and drivers this large are a pain to do. They will likely get the puzzlecoat pretreat in situ.

Quote:
the whizzer is larger than the emitting surface of several of our favorite FRangers ( EL70/ Alpair7 - FF125WK)
A bit larger than the cone on the Alpair12 (~13 cm)

dave
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