Am I alone in simply not wanting to use these things? I have a bunch at home sitting unused in boxes. The better sounding and most expensive ones seem to roll off around 10k (smoothly) and the cheapies peak, dip, fiz and spit. While I love the idea of a small thing radiating beautiful treble I just can't seem to find a way to sonically integrate them with full range drivers.
Zilla
Zilla
>>> It's the 2-5K range that I find hard to get right.
Agree. And when you think you have it right and move the speaker to another spot in the room it's all wrong again. LOL. Maybe not all the tweeters fault as it's partnering with another driver.
As for the benefits of fullrange, i like popping the driver into an appropriate box (of sorts) and playing with toe in. If the sound doesn't suit the room i change the driver/cabinet altogether.
Agree. And when you think you have it right and move the speaker to another spot in the room it's all wrong again. LOL. Maybe not all the tweeters fault as it's partnering with another driver.
As for the benefits of fullrange, i like popping the driver into an appropriate box (of sorts) and playing with toe in. If the sound doesn't suit the room i change the driver/cabinet altogether.
I prefer using CD's on waveguides/horns, namely the K-Tubes. I do have a bunch of domes in boxes, but no real interest to put them to use. The coolest dome I have is that old Foster phenolic on a small plastic horn; I think it sounds quite nice and I measured its FR once, the damned little thing extended all the way to ~20khz. Can't seem to find that graph though... :/
IG
IG
I've been playing around with adding tweeters to full ranges (shhh don't tell anybody 
)
My observation is if the crossover point is where you can use the full range to its best advantage, ie 4-5kHz, the full range is going to be beaming a fair bit and the dome will still be dispersing well.
I've had some reasonable results but I think the discontinuity in the power response is the source of poor integration. I think a lot of people are quite sensitive to this.
Waveguides for the tweeter are next on my list to explore to try and control the directivity better at the crossover point.
) My observation is if the crossover point is where you can use the full range to its best advantage, ie 4-5kHz, the full range is going to be beaming a fair bit and the dome will still be dispersing well.
I've had some reasonable results but I think the discontinuity in the power response is the source of poor integration. I think a lot of people are quite sensitive to this.
Waveguides for the tweeter are next on my list to explore to try and control the directivity better at the crossover point.
Last edited:
Maybe some 19 mm or 22 mm would fit better , if they have to reproduce modern ( with higher aliasing filter frequency ) formats ,such HR files . They extend well beyond 20 KHz
Check these Seas :
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/
SEAS Prestige 22TAF/G (H1283) Alum/Magn. Alloy 22 mm Dome Tweeter: Madisound Speaker Store
Seas Prestige H1280-06 22TFF tweeter: Madisound Speaker Store
Check these Seas :
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-19tff1-h0737-3/4-textile-dome-tweeter/
SEAS Prestige 22TAF/G (H1283) Alum/Magn. Alloy 22 mm Dome Tweeter: Madisound Speaker Store
Seas Prestige H1280-06 22TFF tweeter: Madisound Speaker Store
Last edited:
Because I am mostly in the sweet spot while listening, the beaming isn't a problem. Since spending time with planet10, I have really begun to appreciate the benefits of the FR but can't fully get over the fact I kinda like a bit more bass and treble. Most recently I have had a lot of fun with the FR and helper woofers and tweeters. Just enough help that you don't take away from the FR but at the same time you don't feel cheated in the lows and highs dept.
Sounds like you moved it to close to a wall or something. If you're use to listening to directional FR drivers, then add a dome tweeter that flares nearly 180 degrees, that might be confusing to your brain. If you're far from walls, that range will be easily attenuated within the room. And depending on the xo frequency, it likely messed up the power response, again adding to room placement issues.
How big of a driver are you adding dome tweeters too?
Yeah, single VC 'full-range' drivers were originally for PA [Public Address] systems with a ~flat 200-4500 Hz BW and up to 70-7000 Hz [two decades] for large vocal groups to orchestral music reproduction with wider BW and/or more dynamic performance requiring a two or three way system.
If one does the research same as Bell Labs, etc. did, one finds the latter an excellent trade-off for designing a two or three way speaker with ample power handling for a relatively wide dynamic range at low distortion both on and off axis [within reason].
Regardless, from this I concluded that shifting the decades to suit my needs was the correct design approach and nothing I've read/experienced since then has convinced me otherwise, though for near-field apps where it can be toe'd in to a solo seating, one can cheat quite a bit since both power handling and good off axis response requirements are minimal. Bob Brines's Lowther floor-standing MLTL is a good example as is some small TB, Fostex, RS driver folded pipe horns designed for desk placement I've auditioned.
GM
Since the OP was dome tweeters:
Most cheap dome tweeters don't go much higher than a good 3-4" wide-range driver, at least on axis. However, putting a 1" dome on top of a 6-8" wide-ranger can screw up the power response off-axis. The off-axis response of the large driver is collapsing to a very narrow angle, then all of a sudden the little dome starts producing at near 180*. For this reason, I always go for a horn loaded tweeter. The down side, and everything has a down side, is that horn loaded tweeters are hugely more efficient than most wide-rangers.
A thought: If you insist on using a dome tweeter, mount in from the rear of the baffle and quisi-horn load it by contouring the baffle cutout.
Bob
Most cheap dome tweeters don't go much higher than a good 3-4" wide-range driver, at least on axis. However, putting a 1" dome on top of a 6-8" wide-ranger can screw up the power response off-axis. The off-axis response of the large driver is collapsing to a very narrow angle, then all of a sudden the little dome starts producing at near 180*. For this reason, I always go for a horn loaded tweeter. The down side, and everything has a down side, is that horn loaded tweeters are hugely more efficient than most wide-rangers.
A thought: If you insist on using a dome tweeter, mount in from the rear of the baffle and quisi-horn load it by contouring the baffle cutout.
Bob
How about rearmounting the tweeter? That way the cab would approximately cast a sonic shadow where the FR driver casts its HF lobe. The same thing would maybe go for two sidemounted tweeters?
I know this is not kosher with phase and early reflection purists, but you kind of gave that up the second you said you wanted a tweeter.
I know this is not kosher with phase and early reflection purists, but you kind of gave that up the second you said you wanted a tweeter.
Last edited:
The best is to match directivity and stay away from early reflections. You're multi-way the second you add a tweeter, and this is how a multi-way system should be designed. Most aren't, which is part of why FR is so enjoyable.
To match directivity, most FR enthusiests tend to cross over very high where both the tweeter and FR driver are directional. I think this is mostly because they want to push the xo up away from the sensitive hearing regions, but as a side result, they're matching directivity better (probably without knowing it most of the time).
As bob pointed out, you could use a horn loaded tweeter that has a similar directivity.
I'm not familiar with rear firing, but if it can do it, then go for it. I don't see how it would, but haven't looked at it closely.
Twin side firing tweeters has to many issues. That approach should probably not be pursued, but this is DIY. Knock yourself out
To match directivity, most FR enthusiests tend to cross over very high where both the tweeter and FR driver are directional. I think this is mostly because they want to push the xo up away from the sensitive hearing regions, but as a side result, they're matching directivity better (probably without knowing it most of the time).
As bob pointed out, you could use a horn loaded tweeter that has a similar directivity.
I'm not familiar with rear firing, but if it can do it, then go for it. I don't see how it would, but haven't looked at it closely.
Twin side firing tweeters has to many issues. That approach should probably not be pursued, but this is DIY. Knock yourself out
Side note. This is something I've been learning more about recently. It's old news, but I think it's something often left on the table. Since being introduced to FR about a year ago now, I was forced to ask myself the question. How come these things work so good? Being a multi-way guy, it was exciting to ponder, but a bit of a struggle. I started to ask, is it because there are no electrical hinderinces. Possibly, but I'm to sciencey for that. So there's got to be a better explanation I thought.
Well, that's lead me down this path. Seamless integration of drivers at the cross over. A cross over will NEVER be as seamless as a FRer. But I can try
OT, but perhaps someone out there is wondering what I had been and that'll shed some light on why FRs have some kind of edge on multi-ways.
Well, that's lead me down this path. Seamless integration of drivers at the cross over. A cross over will NEVER be as seamless as a FRer. But I can try
OT, but perhaps someone out there is wondering what I had been and that'll shed some light on why FRs have some kind of edge on multi-ways.
The only reason I can see for adding a tweeter to a "real" FR (that is a driver that goes low enough and at least up to 15-16Khz, a FR with shelved or rapidly sloping response is another matter) is to get better off-axis response. Using a horn/waveguide to add directionality to the tweeter geddes style will only dublicate the problem of the highs falling off sooner than the mids AFAICS.
Again AFAICS, what you really want is a tweeter with a hole in the polar response, or the exact opposite of normal driver behaviour. That could be accomplished in the two ways I described above.
Again AFAICS, what you really want is a tweeter with a hole in the polar response, or the exact opposite of normal driver behaviour. That could be accomplished in the two ways I described above.
Last edited:
If there is not enough off axis power, because the driver is to large and beaming, then a tweeter that has 180d directivity can be used. Fine. But it should be crossed in where appropriate. In this case, that might be down around 2.5khz. Which is usually out of the question for FR guys. What is not a good idea, is what I suspect turned the OP off of domes, and that is to cross in a flaring tweeter at 5khz to a woofer that was beaming as low as 1khz. Doing this takes you from a directivity controlled midrange to an intense power response treble region that will splash all over the room and ultimately turn you off of dome tweeters.
Again, I'm not seeing how rear mounting would help. Lots of energy would reflect off the rear wall and not match the frontal power afaics. Possibly there's something I'm missing? Please point that out.
Side firing has to many phase issues in my mind. It may "fill" in that off axis power you're missing, but at the expense of comb filtering. You're fixing the off axis problem with an off axis problem. You still have an off axis problem.
Again, I'm not seeing how rear mounting would help. Lots of energy would reflect off the rear wall and not match the frontal power afaics. Possibly there's something I'm missing? Please point that out.
Side firing has to many phase issues in my mind. It may "fill" in that off axis power you're missing, but at the expense of comb filtering. You're fixing the off axis problem with an off axis problem. You still have an off axis problem.
I somewhat missed what you're saying here until I re-read it. But I disagree that a waveguide tweeter having controlled off axis attenuation is a problem. It needs to be matched to the FR driver. Out around 8khz, many FRers have a steeply falling off axis behaviour. A proper waveguide tweeter won't do this. And if matched to the FR driver at the appropriate frequency, the results SHOULD be good. (I haven't done it, except in a multi-way system using dedicated midwoofers).
Here is an example of the type of tweeter response that should be used.
That tweeter/waveguide has not been adjusted for flat response, so just consider the off axis trend to see what I mean.
I think it's a number of things. The old phase coherency thing is probably true to some degree. While FR driver also have phase problems they generally happen more gradually and higher up than with a multi-way system.Side note. This is something I've been learning more about recently. It's old news, but I think it's something often left on the table. Since being introduced to FR about a year ago now, I was forced to ask myself the question. How come these things work so good? Being a multi-way guy, it was exciting to ponder, but a bit of a struggle. I started to ask, is it because there are no electrical hinderinces. Possibly, but I'm to sciencey for that. So there's got to be a better explanation I thought.
Well, that's lead me down this path. Seamless integration of drivers at the cross over. A cross over will NEVER be as seamless as a FRer. But I can try
OT, but perhaps someone out there is wondering what I had been and that'll shed some light on why FRs have some kind of edge on multi-ways.
But I don't think that is the one, or even most important reason for FR drivers allure.
Having two drivers with very different sonic characteristics overlapping and interacting, and in general covering the same material, in the most sensitive band of hearing to boot, can't be beneficial.
Also with regards to the topic at hand, the falloff of highs is probably better psychoacoustically accepted than the weird off-axis response of multiway speakers, often with a dip in the middle and reflections of a different kind than what would happen with a natural sound source.
Last edited:
Unless your driver takes a nosedive from 8Khz I can't see how integration would be successful *on* axis. You would get a very bright sounding speaker. Unless of course you are talking about putting a filter on the FR to force it down, but then many would probably argue that you are loosing a lot of the purity of the FR idea, even though you are crossing over higher than usual.
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.