Home Theater Design Advice

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
So I'm working on designing a home theater sound system for my parents and I'm a bit lost. I'm used to designing stereo speakers but I really have no idea about design considerations for home theater systems.

I need to keep the price down so I was thinking a single full range would be the best option to avoid crossover + multiple driver expenses. I was recommended the CSS EL70 by Dave (Planet10) but I'm a bit worried about their power handling abilities. The system needs to be pretty loud for use while in the next room over (not separated) and I don't want to blow the drivers. I will most likely be low passing the speakers around 80 or lower Hz so that should help save them.

I will have the two mains in our home entertainment center behind speaker grill material so they can be hideously unattractive and pretty large (MAX 11" high by 18" wide by 21" deep). The rears will be mounted in the ceiling (I know its not optimal...) and I don't know if they will need a cabinet or if I can just use the ceiling as a cabinet. The center will be very similar to the mains in terms of placement, in the same entertainment center.

The system needs to have a pretty broad sweet spot over the whole couch or I know my parents will be unhappy. I don't know if these drivers or full rangers in general will be too directional for this.

What I'm thinking is bass reflex all round except for the center which needs to be really clear for vocals so I was thinking sealed to have less bass coming out of it.

Any suggestions? I'm lost...

The total cost should probably be under 250 or so for the drivers, with some wiggle room if its worth it.

Thanks all!
 

GM

Member
Joined 2003
Sounds like you’re going to need a separate sub system and run all the others as ‘small’.

I haven’t had much luck using small FR drivers in relatively large spaces, especially at long listening positions, so used either car audio co-ax or PA drivers like this one except back then it carried Altec labels and had an AlNiCo motor: Electro-Voice 409-8E | Performance Audio

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...0qmJBQ&usg=AFQjCNHqcA-sXyYxPHoYFW5wNxlbbZqnYA

With their high Qt, they can be put in damped open back boxes and ‘as is’ in the ceilings, all XO’d via the HT receiver. Of course you’ll need to shelve the tweeters some, but where high intelligibility and a certain amount of directivity is required, this type of driver excels.

Anyway, there’s quite a large selection of this type driver to choose from and probably quite a bit cheaper in some cases plus there should be 12” available also, which is better for long throw apps such as yours, though can’t comment on how well they might compare sonically to this somewhat premium line.

GM
 
By now it's no secret that I'm a fan of the simplicity of using smallish FR drivers in a HT system, for an appropriate sized room ( approx 320sq ft in my case), but Greg is quite right that at "realistic" levels in a much larger space, little guys like the EL70 could be in over their heads.

Even with full bandwidth LCR speakers, separately powered "Subs"/ LFE channel woofers are a given part of any true multichannel system, so you may well be able to get the required performance for the front row from drivers less than 12"

One thing that car audio and PA drivers are engineered to handle is power and high SPLs.
 
Of course you’ll need to shelve the tweeters some

Sorry what does this mean?

I should have mentioned earlier that we do have a sub which is why I don't mind low passing the LCRs. I don't remember but I believe its a polk 10" BR

How does the sonic quality of P.A. or car audio speakers compare to home type speakers. Maybe this is a misconception but whenever I hear those words I get skeptical and think more mass market low-fi.

What sort of power handling do you guys think I need for a home theater (not including the sub) for pretty loud but not eardrum rupturing performance. I noticed that those E-V speakers can hit 112 dB
 
Sorry what does this mean?

I should have mentioned earlier that we do have a sub which is why I don't mind low passing the LCRs. I don't remember but I believe its a polk 10" BR

How does the sonic quality of P.A. or car audio speakers compare to home type speakers. Maybe this is a misconception but whenever I hear those words I get skeptical and think more mass market low-fi.

What sort of power handling do you guys think I need for a home theater (not including the sub) for pretty loud but not eardrum rupturing performance. I noticed that those E-V speakers can hit 112 dB


If you don't already own or have access to one, I'd strongly suggest getting your hands on a cheapie Radio Shack or equivalent SPL meter, then sit down for a listening session with your folks in the room(s) in question - drag your own system from home if necessary. I'd like to be able predict what volume levels they'd find sufficient, but unless you already know that, it's all supposition.

Yes, some cheaper car audio speakers are crap, but there are many that have power abuse limits beyond that of mainstream home speakers - however as they are designed for much different conditions, not all perform well in 400+sq ft rooms. If you conclude that conventional drivers intended for domestic use won't be sufficient, I'd be inclined to look a smaller PA / sound reinforcement rather than mobile audio drivers.
 
For a short time i had one and it didn't work so i returned it and now i cant bring myself to spend that much on such an overpriced device at radioshack (I don't like their philosophy). I'll look into some larger more powerful full rangers and if i cant find something sufficient ill have to look into two way options and figure out the cheapest possible crossover. Dayton has some good looking long throw mid bass extended range drivers
 
That link is broken but I'd love to read it. If anyone knows of other good reads about ht design that would be great also

FWIW I consider off axis issues (no treble to speak of) of decent sized FR's used for HT a major issue.

This is true with my experience too. My tang band 3" full range line arrays are like lasers, its impressive, but this also comes with good imaging imo, of course this isn't good for ht use
 
That link is broken but I'd love to read it. If anyone knows of other good reads about ht design that would be great also



This is true with my experience too. My tang band 3" full range line arrays are like lasers, its impressive, but this also comes with good imaging imo, of course this isn't good for ht use



Link worked fine for me - looks like a well considered, modular family of designs, and using multiples of the same drivers certainly makes a helluva lot of sense for a HT rig. Personally, I'd not be inclined to go for much larger than the TMM tower as mains - leave the heaviest lifting ( below 120 or so) to separate subs - if the room is large enough that you're uncomfortable with small full-range drivers, it's very likely that at least 2 woofers will be the best approach for even distribution of low frequencies.


Meeting your target budget with multiways of this quality will be rather a challenge.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I have a lazy susan of small FRs (sometimes larger) rotating thru my 2.0 HT. The biamped helper woofers are fairly constant). Idonothave any complaints with levels (i have a dedicated HT decorder which uses my regular hifi amp (20w). My room is (fairly) big. At least with my treated drivers in these boxes i have no issues with sweet spot -- one of my chairs is outside of the left speaker i still get imaging and decent HF.

Mar-Kel70wT in my system at the moment -- Chris, these are the ones for the woof-wT we were recently talking about.

260611d1326683660-advice-good-cabinets-must-meet-waf-mk70wt-fir.jpg


dave
 
I got that link working, I think it was just my phone. I like those designs quite a lot. I think I may go with one of those. Maybe 2 way ZA5.2 ported for the LR and surrounds, and the ZA5.3c MTM for my center.

I probably could get a FR driver to work but I would guess that the receiver puts out ~100w and between my younger sister and parents the likelihood of some 20w drivers being instantly blown is a bit high for my taste.

I could probably stretch my budget (that is of course the 3rd person "my") to accommodate those plans. The drivers combined for the system I described would cost about $360 and I need to figure out how much the drivers would be.

I can save on pretty much everything else, bare unfinished mdf boxes because they wont be visible, pcv scrap ports, etc.

I'll figure out my crossovers (something new for me :eek:) and report back in a few hours.

Thanks everyone!

BTW those speakers are gorgeous Dave
 
Meeting your target budget with multiways of this quality will be rather a challenge.

Hi,

Yes. $250 for drivers for five speakers is asking a lot, as is assuming
with FR drivers somehow filters can be easily ignored, they can't.

Well they can be, but that is a philosophy, not a design decision.

Zaph|Audio

Details a family of designs where you can adjust the filters for
driver placement for best total balance. Its relatively cheap
for one good reason, you must use a sub and preferably two,
even though it might be one mono 4 ohm amplifier driving
two 8 ohm subwoofer cabinets.
You must have a good, flexible in set up, AV amplifier.

FR fans seem to enjoy bashing Zaphs designs without ever
suggesting anything remotely comparable for the budget.

With 3" drivers, about the largest you get get without
serious treble issues for FR, the bulk of the budget
transfers to the subs, dual subs being preferable.

rgds, sreten.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I probably could get a FR driver to work but I would guess that the receiver puts out ~100w and between my younger sister and parents the likelihood of some 20w drivers being instantly blown is a bit high for my taste.

Power ratings are one of the least standardized (ie none) and most useless specifications for home hifi drivers in exixtance. I always ignore it.

dave
 
I designed and built a complete 5.1 system for my own home a couple of years ago, inspired by this forum. I used single full range drivers, each one 4.5" and installed in an Onken (bass reflex) style enclosure. The idea was to cross-over to a sub at 80Hz. I made a powerful sub woofer to go with.

I did not find the full range drivers to be adequate. I like the sound of full range for music, but for HT it simply did not have the balls for the job. Whilst I thought the unique qualities of small full range speakers would be a step up on the usual approach, it was in the end not as satisfying. Movies are not music.

I now use fairly large commercial multi-way speakers (except for the centre which I also plan to upgrade to a good sized 2-way) and I'm very pleased with the results. These speakers have 6" bass drivers, they dig deep (lower than 80Hz) and they deliver real power into the room.

As this is DIY you might not want to hear the following suggestion - I would advise you to buy commercial speakers. You can get some really good deals on speakers that are more than adequate for HT whereas making your own with high quality full range drivers is not as cheap as it first appears. It will save you a lot of time and effort building your own - I was frustrated in the end with waiting to get the system up and running which was pressure I didn't want from a hobby. You will be able to audition them before you buy them too. It was a lot of work making 5 speakers from scratch, the wood work, the electrical work etc. Once your dad is enjoying his movies, you can always have a bash at making your own and if they are that much better, swap them out and flog off the old ones.

You also won't want to hear this - I had my rear speakers mounted on the ceiling. Big failure. The sound is simply coming from the wrong place. Even though they were angled down it did not generate a 'surround sound' and never worked well. I tried some speakers at the proper height by using a pair of floorstanders for the rear surrounds - magnificent. The cables are a nuisance, but I kind of got over that once I heard my first blu-ray with powerful surround sound. And cables are easier to hide these days than in the past - such as flatwire hidden under the carpet, rug or under the skirting board (or is it called base board or kick board in America ?).
 
The budget is limited here and looks is not that important; store bought speakers would not be a good choice.

Before I found out about full range I was using these, also build them for friends, etc. They are very, very natural sounding and using one as a center channel now. They are reasonably priced, considering the drivers and the well built crossover.

HDS Home Theater Kit - Parts Only: Madisound Speaker Store
 

Attachments

  • HDS HDS Kit 01.JPG
    HDS HDS Kit 01.JPG
    270.5 KB · Views: 129
  • HDS Cross 02.JPG
    HDS Cross 02.JPG
    712.8 KB · Views: 127
As this is DIY you might not want to hear the following suggestion

The budget is limited here and looks is not that important; store bought speakers would not be a good choice.

Looks like your both right ;)

Before I found out about full range I was using these, also build them for friends, etc. They are very, very natural sounding and using one as a center channel now. They are reasonably priced, considering the drivers and the well built crossover.

HDS Home Theater Kit - Parts Only: Madisound Speaker Store

Those look great! Maybe if I ordered the parts separately and assembled them myself I could keep the price down, approx $600 for 5 of those is a bit much for my liking, even if I could save $100 that would be a good option.

You also won't want to hear this - I had my rear speakers mounted on the ceiling. Big failure. The sound is simply coming from the wrong place. Even though they were angled down it did not generate a 'surround sound' and never worked well. I tried some speakers at the proper height by using a pair of floorstanders for the rear surrounds - magnificent. The cables are a nuisance, but I kind of got over that once I heard my first blu-ray with powerful surround sound. And cables are easier to hide these days than in the past - such as flatwire hidden under the carpet, rug or under the skirting board (or is it called base board or kick board in America ?).

I actually agree with you on this one but my moms not going to change her mind and we already have all the wiring up there, I would just replace whats currently there. I lobbied for towers mounted on the walls but she wasn't into it. Also she doesn't really like surround sound because she has trouble focusing on the dialogue when the surrounds are noticeable or something so they will be at low volumes and much less important that the LCRs

I was frustrated in the end with waiting to get the system up and running

Thats not a problem, we already have a system in place but its pretty much mass market low-fi and I'm just replacing it so downtime will only be a few hours during the replacement

It seems to me that my best option is to either use one of those kits or model my own system closely after one of them just because the massive amount of design needed for 5 speakers all at once
 
HDS Kits

Jumping into HT is expensive when you need 5 (or more) speakers. The Madisound kit is priced well, and that's a custom crossover they designed/tested, no way to DIY that. Besides if you add up the parts, the $132 is a good deal anyway, however still $660, without shipping.

The Fostex 125wks mentioned is arguably the best bank for the buck. If you can build P10's Fonken boxes, that would be best. I did a few quickie builds for the 125wk. The pic on the right is the plans from Fostex , that box is not very exciting...bla.
 

Attachments

  • 125wks box.JPG
    125wks box.JPG
    162.6 KB · Views: 100
Hi,

5 identical speakers are generally not a good idea for HT.

A cheaper option would be Zaphs ZMV5's L,R & C, with the low BSC
option used for the centre, and the low BSC ZMB4's for the rears.

Zaph|Audio - ZMV5 - MCM / Vifa 5" System
Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini

If the rears are going to turned down a lot, possibly just use whatever
is currently used as left and right for the rears, cut down on the work.

rgds, sreten.
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.